Common Rail EDM Injectors
10-20-2004, 10:23 PM
#46
DTR Advertiser
Again, I do not take the stock Bosch nozzles and EDM the holes larger.
Im certain I dont clog the A or Z holes in the injector nozzle holder or body. I take them completely apart, clean them, re-assemble, and test them. If there was a clog...they would not operate properly during testing.
I know you guys sell nozzles to TDI owners and they are changing them out themselves. Thats generally not a problem with the older style injectors. Personally Im somewhat nervous about the possibility of a problem occuring with the Common Rail style.
In the begining many guys were modifying the stock nozzles on the older style injectors using EDM processes. We tried it and did not like the results or the reduced durability its caused. This must be what you are refering to.
Along with forming our own holes using EDM in a new nozzle we also do other processes that are not known in the industry. Its not extrude honing or having to do with EDM at all. Its been done from day one and is not public knowledge.
Don~
Im certain I dont clog the A or Z holes in the injector nozzle holder or body. I take them completely apart, clean them, re-assemble, and test them. If there was a clog...they would not operate properly during testing.
I know you guys sell nozzles to TDI owners and they are changing them out themselves. Thats generally not a problem with the older style injectors. Personally Im somewhat nervous about the possibility of a problem occuring with the Common Rail style.
In the begining many guys were modifying the stock nozzles on the older style injectors using EDM processes. We tried it and did not like the results or the reduced durability its caused. This must be what you are refering to.
Along with forming our own holes using EDM in a new nozzle we also do other processes that are not known in the industry. Its not extrude honing or having to do with EDM at all. Its been done from day one and is not public knowledge.
Don~
10-20-2004, 10:59 PM
#47
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Yes, common rail pressures are much higher than the older VP stuff. Lower injection pressures leave a bit more margin for error, the forces aren't as severe. ~28,000 psi is a lot higher than ~12,000 psi in the VE-pump VW indeed. With Common Rail, nozzle durability could be a concern, I'm sure you've noticed the differences in the Bosch stuff between the old and new and even within the older/newer common rail stuff. Bosch has had trouble with the bad fuel we have here (compared to Europe) causing premature failure in CR stuff, but it is not just the nozzle failing. Apparently they do durability testing using sweet European fuel not the rotgut we generally have here.
THe whole "EDM-ing nozzles" bit always had me somewhat sceptical- half a degree off in any axis and you just ruined your nozzle. Very tough if not impossible to do (correctly) especially if you're trying to match existing holes- more so when you're talking holes that are measured in micrometers, and with design tolerances in the sub-micron range. Most machine shops consider reproducible tolerances of a thousanth or two pretty swell, but ten thousanths or hundred thousanths is rare.
If you are making nozzles from the beginning that presents its own challenges. Very tough to get it right consistently, the neccesary tolerances are incredibly tight, and the high fuel pressures are generally not at all forgiving of slop in the wrong places. And some of these places require very specialized (and expensive) machinery to dimension correctly...
But, DonM seems to have lots of fans, you must be doing something right. Cheers.
THe whole "EDM-ing nozzles" bit always had me somewhat sceptical- half a degree off in any axis and you just ruined your nozzle. Very tough if not impossible to do (correctly) especially if you're trying to match existing holes- more so when you're talking holes that are measured in micrometers, and with design tolerances in the sub-micron range. Most machine shops consider reproducible tolerances of a thousanth or two pretty swell, but ten thousanths or hundred thousanths is rare.
If you are making nozzles from the beginning that presents its own challenges. Very tough to get it right consistently, the neccesary tolerances are incredibly tight, and the high fuel pressures are generally not at all forgiving of slop in the wrong places. And some of these places require very specialized (and expensive) machinery to dimension correctly...
But, DonM seems to have lots of fans, you must be doing something right. Cheers.
10-21-2004, 02:15 PM
#48
DTR Advertiser
Yes, we started from scratch. We spec'd our own steel alloy for increased strength. Its chemical make-up is patented and used in all our nozzles.
We use the EDM process to form holes, but not with the common EDM sinker type machine. The main difference is we rotate the electrode as it enters the nozzle. This forms a perfectly round hole. Much rounder than the conventional EDM process. I see ovate holes in many of the common and less expensive nozzles.
On some of the Common Rail nozzles we use a copper vapor laser to hole drill. We can drill holes smaller than any EDM machine could dream off. Where we can go to .004" with EDM, we have the abilty if needed to go to holes as small as .0008 with 25 times the drilling speed.
The nozzle is not the conventional and stock type style in any of our products. The 24 valve second gen nozzles can take constant 30,000 PSI. Where the stock type style is less than 18,000 100% of the time. The Common Rail nozzles exceed this yet again.
Some companies have resorted to Chinese manufacturers that make a cheap 5 dollar piece and mark them up 10 times. We decided against this practice from the get go. Exporting labor to countries like this is not a good for the U.S. in the long run. Perhaps for the bottom line, but nothing more.
Unfortunantly we cant give away the rest of the story, but the performance speaks for itself. Thousands of our nozzles are in service. Zero failures, zero broken tips even with the increased demads of higher than stock EGT and HP outputs over 640 HP. Two years and counting.
Don~
We use the EDM process to form holes, but not with the common EDM sinker type machine. The main difference is we rotate the electrode as it enters the nozzle. This forms a perfectly round hole. Much rounder than the conventional EDM process. I see ovate holes in many of the common and less expensive nozzles.
On some of the Common Rail nozzles we use a copper vapor laser to hole drill. We can drill holes smaller than any EDM machine could dream off. Where we can go to .004" with EDM, we have the abilty if needed to go to holes as small as .0008 with 25 times the drilling speed.
The nozzle is not the conventional and stock type style in any of our products. The 24 valve second gen nozzles can take constant 30,000 PSI. Where the stock type style is less than 18,000 100% of the time. The Common Rail nozzles exceed this yet again.
Some companies have resorted to Chinese manufacturers that make a cheap 5 dollar piece and mark them up 10 times. We decided against this practice from the get go. Exporting labor to countries like this is not a good for the U.S. in the long run. Perhaps for the bottom line, but nothing more.
Unfortunantly we cant give away the rest of the story, but the performance speaks for itself. Thousands of our nozzles are in service. Zero failures, zero broken tips even with the increased demads of higher than stock EGT and HP outputs over 640 HP. Two years and counting.
Don~
10-21-2004, 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Don M
Some companies have resorted to Chinese manufacturers that make a cheap 5 dollar piece and mark them up 10 times. We decided against this practice from the get go. Exporting labor to countries like this is not a good for the U.S. in the long run. Perhaps for the bottom line, but nothing more.
Some companies have resorted to Chinese manufacturers that make a cheap 5 dollar piece and mark them up 10 times. We decided against this practice from the get go. Exporting labor to countries like this is not a good for the U.S. in the long run. Perhaps for the bottom line, but nothing more.
We've examined some of the Chinese stuff and I really can't believe that any company that takes an iota of pride in their product sells what we've seen. I've seen some of the Chinese ones sold for TDI wear out after only 3k miles (yes, that's three THOUSAND miles.) THe lure of windfall profits must be too much for these vendors. I thought of buying a bunch of them and blowing them out just to show people how cheap the are bought but I won't associate my name with them.
So if you are making holes with copper vapor lasers, are you still gonna call them "EDM injectors?" Sounds like EDM is an inferior process, maybe it's tiime to raise the bar.
But then there's more to making injector tips than simply drilling holes.
10-21-2004, 07:17 PM
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Website's in my profile. Don't want to run afoul of the forum rules, so that's all I'll say about that.
Jump to http://forums.tdiclub.com and do a search on the same username there "KERMA" I think it's up to over 2000 posts now.
TDI is my thing, but I'm always trying to broaden my horizons, this diesel stuff is massively cool IMO. I lurk on a many of the truck sites like TDR and this one, you can't help but run across a million posts all saying the same thing "LOVE MY DONM INJECTORS"
So I say to myself "what's all the hubbub about" and finally decide to pipe in and ask some questions, just curious, mainly. Maybe I know a little about injectors myself, but chances are I can learn something. You can ALWAYS learn something new. TDI guys haven't advanced the state of the art the same way the Dodge crowd has, or at least the "hard core" isn't as ubiquitous, performance hasn't really caught on in the same way, maybe 'cause most folks buy TDI as econocars.
But hey, they're all diesels, they all use the same general principles. More and more people are discovering that with a few hundred bucks in mods, these "slow economy cars" smoke (literally and figuratively) many a car that's supposed to be fast, and STILL GET 45+ MPG, IOW it's catching on. THey're slow out of the box, but we can make them fast(er). (still no 11 sec TDI-yet but there's a couple guys across the pond that are close)
Jump to http://forums.tdiclub.com and do a search on the same username there "KERMA" I think it's up to over 2000 posts now.
TDI is my thing, but I'm always trying to broaden my horizons, this diesel stuff is massively cool IMO. I lurk on a many of the truck sites like TDR and this one, you can't help but run across a million posts all saying the same thing "LOVE MY DONM INJECTORS"
So I say to myself "what's all the hubbub about" and finally decide to pipe in and ask some questions, just curious, mainly. Maybe I know a little about injectors myself, but chances are I can learn something. You can ALWAYS learn something new. TDI guys haven't advanced the state of the art the same way the Dodge crowd has, or at least the "hard core" isn't as ubiquitous, performance hasn't really caught on in the same way, maybe 'cause most folks buy TDI as econocars.
But hey, they're all diesels, they all use the same general principles. More and more people are discovering that with a few hundred bucks in mods, these "slow economy cars" smoke (literally and figuratively) many a car that's supposed to be fast, and STILL GET 45+ MPG, IOW it's catching on. THey're slow out of the box, but we can make them fast(er). (still no 11 sec TDI-yet but there's a couple guys across the pond that are close)
10-21-2004, 08:06 PM
#55
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Very cool! Thanks for clearing that up. I could tell by your posts that you were up on your information and were asking informed questions. Welcome aboard!
Richard
Richard
10-21-2004, 09:47 PM
#57
DTR Advertiser
Most of the injectors will be drilled using EDM. It took me the last 18 months to get people to warm up to the term after several other companies had them breaking off in engines. I think I will stick with "EDM" as of now.
I remember 15 months back one of my vendors asking me about TDI injectors. If I had the interest to prototype some new designs. We actually worked up two new nozzles and built the prototpyes, but back shelved them after we realized there were already plenty of injector vendors in that smaller market. I see the once smaller market has really grown and the abundance of the TDI has increased.
I pulled the dyno sheets to refresh my memory. 169 HP on the first set of data gathering pulls. Not bad for a wee 1.9 litre.
The second set went to a guy that raced the little things. He was dynoing over 200 HP back then. Since smoke control is one of the main thrusts for me.....we had the first design somewhat too smokey. Maybe I can apply some of the newest technology we use now to clean that smoke up.
I need to hunt down some guinea pigs.
Don~
I remember 15 months back one of my vendors asking me about TDI injectors. If I had the interest to prototype some new designs. We actually worked up two new nozzles and built the prototpyes, but back shelved them after we realized there were already plenty of injector vendors in that smaller market. I see the once smaller market has really grown and the abundance of the TDI has increased.
I pulled the dyno sheets to refresh my memory. 169 HP on the first set of data gathering pulls. Not bad for a wee 1.9 litre.
The second set went to a guy that raced the little things. He was dynoing over 200 HP back then. Since smoke control is one of the main thrusts for me.....we had the first design somewhat too smokey. Maybe I can apply some of the newest technology we use now to clean that smoke up.
I need to hunt down some guinea pigs.
Don~
