doug

you might be right about that. if you the valve goes it is certainly an expensive trip to the dealer. it probably is non-servicable. anyone know for sure?

Gwoody

The book shows a fuel pressure limiting valve located on the fuel rail just in front of the fuel filter and above it, it has a line attached to it that dumps fuel back to the return if it ever opens up. Looks pretty simple to replace if this is indeed the critter, bet they'd be tough to purchase.

tcr

You guys w/ 6- guns that your going to send back for the race program, MAKE SURE you stay on top of them. I overnighted them my box they have held on to it for three days now, told me "once we receive it we ship it back out w/in 24 hrs. I wasted my shipping charges to get it there and they want me to pay to have it shipped back w/in a reasonable time. Peter T, you may want C. service to quit b.s.ing those of us who spend thousands w/you guys. I dont care if the upgrade is free, I'll pay for it, just get me my chit on time so I can enjoy it.

JThiessen

Doug,
I'm interested in where this info on the pressure relief valve comes from (regarding its failure tendancy). In the year and a half that I've been a memeber of the TDR, I've never heard of anyone having an issue with it, either under normal operating conditions, or from bombing. I'm not necessarily questioning its validity, more a question of occurance.
I'm failry sure that the vendors have pushed the limits of the systems in the truck - or at least obtained guidance from someone knowledgeable.

doug

Diesel Dynamics and Edge, primarily, as regards the 65 HP figure. Their actions (in de-tuning their box) show me that they've done some work in this area and don't want to be associated with rail failures. Their tests also showed the destructive nature of what happens when the valve goes -- basically that things never return to normal without a valve replacement. Once the valve yields to pressure, it will re-seat but not as effectively and the effective set point becomes lower (the valve pops easier the next time).

But note that other mfgs have their own statemets too, as regards max pressure. VA is even more conservative, staying at about 30 HP. also of note here is that DD is an injector company as well, and has to stand behind their projects as they are designed to work together. Such "vertical integration", combined with the reputation they (DD) are obviously protecting, could mean that injectors plus pressure presents a different level of risk than just pressure alone. I really don't know.

The way I think of it is this: knowing that we have a destructive limit, and given the variability from truck to truck of that limit, and given the consequences of reaching it, it becomes a very personal risk assessment as to how high you want to go.

so due to the absense of real scientific data, this is essentially a subjective issue. I wish I could say that the probability of popoff with a 100 HP box is x percent, but I can't. But when a company like DD, with large resources and a comprehensive test plan, comes out and de-tunes their box, that gets my attention.

Personally, I look at a mfgs statements regarding safe allowable pressure, and I also look at the basis of that statement -- what data did the mfg use to justify their pressure statement? does it include the risk of popping the pressure relief valve? does it dismiss the pressure issue entirely? Does it add clarity to the issue or confusion? As I say, in the absense of statistically valid failure data (and who's going to provide that!) you have to be subjective and almost religous .

And this is not to say that silent mfgs are bad. Mfgs don't always reveal their thought process and we shouldn't give them a bad rap just for that. we just need to try and understand what it means and if the statement adds understanding.

JThiessen

THanks for the feedback. Thats exactly what I was looking for (and somewhat expecting to hear). Like i said, I wasnt really doubting the statements regarding the valve, just wanted to know that there was some data behind it.

Smkndzl

The only rail pressure relief valve you have to worry about is the one in the ISBe engine which is the European consortium built ISB engine , that valve does have to be replaced if it pops , the Rail valve on the dodge does not have to be replaced , in fact one of the fuel system internal leak test will check the bar reading on the valve working pressure , you can also cause the pressure pump to go in full press. check by just removing the electrical connector at the high pressure actuator on the pump.

Smkndzl

Also , if you take the banjo fitting off the top of that relief valve, there is a fitting from Cummins that goes in place to check that valve is not leaking , but at the same time you put a test fitting in the return banjo fitting from the injector also and check for leakage by measuring leakage for a set time. these are special fitting that will only work for that job, one is just for the press. relief , which blocks the flow of the return line from the injectors , and only allows the flow from the relief valve to flow into a measuring flask.

SoCal-305

The follow-up discussion to this information should be interesting. I might as well start it off. What is it about the European ISBe relief valve that makes it need replacement versus the Dodge piece?

Another thing, how do you know if you have exceeded the relief valve pressure rating, when running a pressure fueling box (so that the real fuel pressure isn't sent to the ECM)? Is there a separate sensor that detects that? I doubt it IMHO since Cummins has a special part that specifically tests for the relief valve integrity, and the overflow just dumps back into the return fuel line. Maybe there's a bunch of you out there that have already "utilized" your relief valve and don't even know it!

PeterT, can you run the "600" Banks Six Gun programming on a 555 motor if you have somehow, someway installed the 600 relief valve? Feel free to PM me if you don't want this to be public.

Smkndzl

the European ISBe is set up in a different configuration then the ISB, the fuel system is common rail , but plumbed totally different , you will only see them in a few midrange trucks like Eveco , for the ISB the fitting for checking the relief valve is just a banjo fitting that blocks the flow from the injector return , if you look at the top of the relief valve you have a banjo fitting and line that goes back to another banjo fitting , that is where the line from the back of the head which is injector return fuel , if you suspect the relief valve is leaking , you will have low power , you could run it at high idle and put your hand on the line on top and feel if it is hot. you can even try it just by letting the engine idle and disconnect the high press. actuator on the pump , and you will get fuel bypassing the relief valve and it will get very hot to touch , another time there is no fuel coming from that valve ,

Smkndzl

one more thing , if you ever suspect that you have a injector line leaking , never put your finger or hand anywhere near it , that common rail has so much press. that just a tiny mist can penetrate your skin and to the bone. not a pleasant thing to happen. now this is true with any injector lines not just common rail engine. we run the ISB at 1600 bars press. that equal 14.7 psi for one bar

BallisticDiesel

I thought we were talking about the 6 gun here. Who Hijacked the thread?

Oh Well

SoCal-305

Well, the Banks Six Gun is a pressure/timing box and we started about talking about issues with high fuel pressures. Me thinks it's somewhat relevant albeit slightly off-topic.

This thread contains some interesting stuff IMO so bump it goes back into the limelight.



Also, I'll ask this once more while I'm here....

PeterT, can you run the "600" Banks Six Gun programming on a 555 motor if you have somehow, someway installed the 600 relief valve? Feel free to PM me if you don't want this to be public.

Smkndzl

I do know that the press relief valve in the 600 is a 1600 bar valve , and that the high press pump is a C3 1600 bar pump , if someone can give me a serial number to a 03 engine , I can look it up . I am thinking they use the same valve , all the engines we use in the Cummins med range have the same valve from 235 hp to the 300 .

robert cannon

Do you know how I can get ahold of the owners manual for pn 62976-05E. Just pick one up from a guy who slod his truck.. the only thing missing is the owners manual and the banks website has everyone but that one.

Thanks