The rest of the story
10-29-2007 | 06:16 PM
#1
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From: Idaho Falls, ID
The rest of the story
I was initially wondering why TWO 6.7 engines were being used. The CC 6.7 turned out to be engine certified to 2007 emissions while the pickup 6.7 was chassis certified to 2010. Why not use one engine for both application? Well here appears to be the rest of the story.
By having the pickup 6.7 chassis certified (not engine certified), Dodge only needed to certify the federal emission system for 5 years and 50,000 miles. After that, the very expensive exhaust treatment system is the owner's expense (except for California and the northeast CA emission states (5 yrs./100,000 miles)). That explains Dodge's motivation.
But why would Cummins, with Urea (SCR) obviously being the soon to be 2010 adopted standard, introduce an NOx absorber technology (dead end technology) engine 3 years earlier than required? Well Cummins recently announced that for 2010 all of its heavy heavy duty emissions engines (class 8 and etc.) will have NOT have any NOx aftertreatment at all! It seems that the emissions saved via buyers of the 6.7 pickups will contribute enough to its emission bank to avoid needing to make the heavy heavy duty emissions engines compliant with the 2010 requirements.
When you are paying for reduced mileage as well as a new emission system at 60,000 miles you can rejoice that your selfless act saved Dodge warrantee costs and helped Cummins avoid making their largest on-road engines 2010 compliant!
By having the pickup 6.7 chassis certified (not engine certified), Dodge only needed to certify the federal emission system for 5 years and 50,000 miles. After that, the very expensive exhaust treatment system is the owner's expense (except for California and the northeast CA emission states (5 yrs./100,000 miles)). That explains Dodge's motivation.
But why would Cummins, with Urea (SCR) obviously being the soon to be 2010 adopted standard, introduce an NOx absorber technology (dead end technology) engine 3 years earlier than required? Well Cummins recently announced that for 2010 all of its heavy heavy duty emissions engines (class 8 and etc.) will have NOT have any NOx aftertreatment at all! It seems that the emissions saved via buyers of the 6.7 pickups will contribute enough to its emission bank to avoid needing to make the heavy heavy duty emissions engines compliant with the 2010 requirements.
When you are paying for reduced mileage as well as a new emission system at 60,000 miles you can rejoice that your selfless act saved Dodge warrantee costs and helped Cummins avoid making their largest on-road engines 2010 compliant!
10-30-2007 | 05:11 AM
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But why would Cummins, with Urea (SCR) obviously being the soon to be 2010 adopted standard, introduce an NOx absorber technology (dead end technology) engine 3 years earlier than required? Well Cummins recently announced that for 2010 all of its heavy heavy duty emissions engines (class 8 and etc.) will have NOT have any NOx aftertreatment at all! It seems that the emissions saved via buyers of the 6.7 pickups will contribute enough to its emission bank to avoid needing to make the heavy heavy duty emissions engines compliant with the 2010 requirements.
When you are paying for reduced mileage as well as a new emission system at 60,000 miles you can rejoice that your selfless act saved Dodge warrantee costs and helped Cummins avoid making their largest on-road engines 2010 compliant!
When you are paying for reduced mileage as well as a new emission system at 60,000 miles you can rejoice that your selfless act saved Dodge warrantee costs and helped Cummins avoid making their largest on-road engines 2010 compliant!
10-30-2007 | 07:03 AM
#7
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Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Indiana
I was initially wondering why TWO 6.7 engines were being used. The CC 6.7 turned out to be engine certified to 2007 emissions while the pickup 6.7 was chassis certified to 2010. Why not use one engine for both application? Well here appears to be the rest of the story.
By having the pickup 6.7 chassis certified (not engine certified), Dodge only needed to certify the federal emission system for 5 years and 50,000 miles. After that, the very expensive exhaust treatment system is the owner's expense (except for California and the northeast CA emission states (5 yrs./100,000 miles)). That explains Dodge's motivation.
But why would Cummins, with Urea (SCR) obviously being the soon to be 2010 adopted standard, introduce an NOx absorber technology (dead end technology) engine 3 years earlier than required? Well Cummins recently announced that for 2010 all of its heavy heavy duty emissions engines (class 8 and etc.) will have NOT have any NOx aftertreatment at all! It seems that the emissions saved via buyers of the 6.7 pickups will contribute enough to its emission bank to avoid needing to make the heavy heavy duty emissions engines compliant with the 2010 requirements.
When you are paying for reduced mileage as well as a new emission system at 60,000 miles you can rejoice that your selfless act saved Dodge warrantee costs and helped Cummins avoid making their largest on-road engines 2010 compliant!
By having the pickup 6.7 chassis certified (not engine certified), Dodge only needed to certify the federal emission system for 5 years and 50,000 miles. After that, the very expensive exhaust treatment system is the owner's expense (except for California and the northeast CA emission states (5 yrs./100,000 miles)). That explains Dodge's motivation.
But why would Cummins, with Urea (SCR) obviously being the soon to be 2010 adopted standard, introduce an NOx absorber technology (dead end technology) engine 3 years earlier than required? Well Cummins recently announced that for 2010 all of its heavy heavy duty emissions engines (class 8 and etc.) will have NOT have any NOx aftertreatment at all! It seems that the emissions saved via buyers of the 6.7 pickups will contribute enough to its emission bank to avoid needing to make the heavy heavy duty emissions engines compliant with the 2010 requirements.
When you are paying for reduced mileage as well as a new emission system at 60,000 miles you can rejoice that your selfless act saved Dodge warrantee costs and helped Cummins avoid making their largest on-road engines 2010 compliant!
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10-30-2007 | 08:34 AM
#8
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I'm with VZDude............I really doubt that it works the way you've described. I have experience with the EPA in other areas and this doesn't line up with how the regulations typically affect an industry.
Where did you get the info?
Mike
Where did you get the info?
Mike
10-30-2007 | 04:24 PM
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As was explained to me today at work. The engine company gets credits when it sells an engine that meets the current or future emission levels. These credits go towards other engines that currently do not meet emission standards. These engines would be industrial/commercial engines and some bus engines. Those credits transfer over toward engines that do not meet emissions and cancels the need for the emission equipment on there. This is all based on the amount of compliant engines sold.
Now on to the second part. The HDD engines do have to be fully compliant with the emision laws. They are and they will be in the future. They will have an aftertreatment. There are no if's, and's, or but's about it, they will have that equipment on there. Also with the urea, how do you know if they will be used for the 2010 emissions? Also have you read anything about Scania Engines on future emissions. They are able to meet future emissions without and aftertreatment. Chew on that for a while.
DDahl I am sorry you feel this way about Cummins. I really do wish though that you could somehow prove what your post brought to light even though half of it is false.
Now on to the second part. The HDD engines do have to be fully compliant with the emision laws. They are and they will be in the future. They will have an aftertreatment. There are no if's, and's, or but's about it, they will have that equipment on there. Also with the urea, how do you know if they will be used for the 2010 emissions? Also have you read anything about Scania Engines on future emissions. They are able to meet future emissions without and aftertreatment. Chew on that for a while.
DDahl I am sorry you feel this way about Cummins. I really do wish though that you could somehow prove what your post brought to light even though half of it is false.
10-31-2007 | 11:01 PM
#11
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From: Twin Cities Mn
A word of caution
Confused, I really appreciate the fact that you were able to give us such distinct info regarding this subject, but (and maybe I'm being a little **** retentive here) I don't know if I would let it be known how far along and how much Cummins has completed in regard to their emissions testing and data gathering... this is in all likelihood proprietary information ... just don't want you to get into any trouble.
11-01-2007 | 05:21 AM
#13
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Thank You DevilzTower. If you look at 2007 equipment they have the aftertreatment on it right now. That is how they are able to meet emissions. Why would anything change when they are so close to the 2010 emissions already with the current engine? The thing is that they are always testing equipment. Past and present engines.
11-09-2007 | 12:11 PM
#14
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From: Idaho Falls, ID
For those who want more information. Read the editorial on Cummins on page two of the October 2007 edition of Diesel Progress ("No SCR? Huh?"). Effects of emission credits for 6.7 Pickups are credited for no NOx exhaust after treatment needed for 2010 HHD engines (class 8).
Also The 6.7 pickup is the FIRST Dodge Cummins to be Chassis emissions rated. All previous Dodges with Cummins 5.9s in them were engine emissions rated. All our older Cummins powered trucks ware rated medium heavy duty (check tag on engine). The 6.7 Pickup meets a lower (less durable) chassis emission class (no emission tag on engine -- its on hood). Only the 6.7 CCs retain the medium heavy duty emissions class.
Also The 6.7 pickup is the FIRST Dodge Cummins to be Chassis emissions rated. All previous Dodges with Cummins 5.9s in them were engine emissions rated. All our older Cummins powered trucks ware rated medium heavy duty (check tag on engine). The 6.7 Pickup meets a lower (less durable) chassis emission class (no emission tag on engine -- its on hood). Only the 6.7 CCs retain the medium heavy duty emissions class.
11-09-2007 | 04:13 PM
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From: Winchester, TN
And Ford owns Cummins too!
I'd toss that Diesel Progress or whatever it is in the garbage where it belongs. There are no loopholes in the 2010 federal emissions standards for diesel engines everyone HAS to meet them. They're not using urea as an aftertreatment because of distribution concerns. Iit takes one gallon of urea injected into the exhaust to treat NOX for every 100 gallons of diesel you burn. You ever seen a urea pump before? Neither have I. Pretty smart on Cummins part I think. Here's the real scoop on ISX, ISM Cummins meeting the 2010 requierments:
http://www.landlinemag.com/todays_ne.../092407-05.htm
Cummins ready for California APU and EPA emission requirements NASHVILLE, TN –
At a press conference just before the fall meeting of the Technology & Maintenance Council here, Cummins Inc. officials announced that their on-highway diesel engines produced after Jan. 1, 2008, will meet the California Air Resources Board clean-idle standards.
Those standards require manufacturers to have either tamper-proof and non-programmable idle shutdown timers or engines that produce less than 30 grams of nitrogen oxide, or NOx per hour.
The 2008 Cummins engines produce less NOx qualifying them to be certified, company officials said. The regulations allow such engines to idle indefinitely, according to a Cummins press statement. Cummins officials said this as an advantage to single drivers who currently idle for cab climate control and to produce electricity to power “hotel loads.”
Also, Cummins officials announced that the company’s ComfortGuard auxiliary power units will meet CARB regulations requiring APUs and generators to have either stand-alone diesel particulate filters on APU diesel engines or to route the APU exhaust through the DPF of the engine. Cummins will make both options available.
No urea needed
Cummins officials also dropped a bombshell on the diesel engine industry, announcing that their ISM and ISX engines will meet 2010 emissions standards without the need for separate after-treatment for NOx.
To date, other engine manufacturers have said their strategies will use catalytic reduction to convert nitrogen oxides to nitrogen and oxygen, the major components of air. That strategy requires the use of urea, commonly used in Europe to meet the latest European standards. It calls for the purchase of a second liquid when fueling and the hardware associated with urea storage and injection.
Cummins will meet the 2010 standards using their High Pressure Common Rail fuel system, next-generation cooled exhaust gas recirculation, advanced electronic controls, air handling with their variable geometry turbocharger and the Cummins Particulate Filter. No urea or its associated equipment will be needed. They also announced that it will introduce an 11.9-liter and a 16-liter engine to complement the current 15-liter ISX.
http://www.landlinemag.com/todays_ne.../092407-05.htm
Cummins ready for California APU and EPA emission requirements NASHVILLE, TN –
At a press conference just before the fall meeting of the Technology & Maintenance Council here, Cummins Inc. officials announced that their on-highway diesel engines produced after Jan. 1, 2008, will meet the California Air Resources Board clean-idle standards.
Those standards require manufacturers to have either tamper-proof and non-programmable idle shutdown timers or engines that produce less than 30 grams of nitrogen oxide, or NOx per hour.
The 2008 Cummins engines produce less NOx qualifying them to be certified, company officials said. The regulations allow such engines to idle indefinitely, according to a Cummins press statement. Cummins officials said this as an advantage to single drivers who currently idle for cab climate control and to produce electricity to power “hotel loads.”
Also, Cummins officials announced that the company’s ComfortGuard auxiliary power units will meet CARB regulations requiring APUs and generators to have either stand-alone diesel particulate filters on APU diesel engines or to route the APU exhaust through the DPF of the engine. Cummins will make both options available.
No urea needed
Cummins officials also dropped a bombshell on the diesel engine industry, announcing that their ISM and ISX engines will meet 2010 emissions standards without the need for separate after-treatment for NOx.
To date, other engine manufacturers have said their strategies will use catalytic reduction to convert nitrogen oxides to nitrogen and oxygen, the major components of air. That strategy requires the use of urea, commonly used in Europe to meet the latest European standards. It calls for the purchase of a second liquid when fueling and the hardware associated with urea storage and injection.
Cummins will meet the 2010 standards using their High Pressure Common Rail fuel system, next-generation cooled exhaust gas recirculation, advanced electronic controls, air handling with their variable geometry turbocharger and the Cummins Particulate Filter. No urea or its associated equipment will be needed. They also announced that it will introduce an 11.9-liter and a 16-liter engine to complement the current 15-liter ISX.