Valvoline Premium Extreme Blue Oil
12-01-2009, 08:56 AM
#32
no 6 oh no:
So are you saying there is a problem with using ci? I assume you know what you are talking about but maybe provide a little more info or referrence when blasing someone like that. Thanks for adding your opinion because a lot of us are curious and would like the real facts. I never believe in the ol cause the manufacturer does it it must be correct. Manufacturers tend to get bound be aggreements, laws, what they previously said to protect their rep, using one catch all product because it works for everything they produced to date, etc. Again thanks for the opinions and facts keep them coming.
So are you saying there is a problem with using ci? I assume you know what you are talking about but maybe provide a little more info or referrence when blasing someone like that. Thanks for adding your opinion because a lot of us are curious and would like the real facts. I never believe in the ol cause the manufacturer does it it must be correct. Manufacturers tend to get bound be aggreements, laws, what they previously said to protect their rep, using one catch all product because it works for everything they produced to date, etc. Again thanks for the opinions and facts keep them coming.
12-01-2009, 09:22 AM
#33
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Well, I am NO oil expert, but I have taken time to read a lot of posts on the Valvoline Premium Blue CJ oil that have oil sample reports tied to them, and they were done at 5K and 7500 mile intervals. All of them appeared to show/prove that this oil is more than adequate for use in our trucks. It is designed to prevent the clogging of the CAT and related emission stuff, or at least that's what I have read.
I have the Amsoil bypass filtration, and while it's design was for the purpose of extending the use of the oil, with all this discussion about the CJ oils I decided to NOT go for the extended oil life it would provide, instead, I change out my oil and both the Stratapore and bypass filter on the 7500 mile interval change.
Since my 2006 has the third injector event, and there is a ton of soot due to that event, and the acids/particles it brings into the picture that cause other damages, it seemed more prudent for the life of my engine to spend a little more money at each oil change.
I sample every oil change, all my samples have been excellent. While the testing company suggests that I could go longer on my changing mileage, I am more than comfortable with what I am doing and will continue to do my changes at the 7500 mile intervals the way I am doing them.
Rather than beat myself up with all the unknowns, it is just easier to go the route I have chosen, less worry to me. If, down the line I have problems that are caused by the CJ oil, I will have exceeded the recommendations of both Dodge and Cummins, and should have less issues with them if something happens during the span of the engine warranty.
CD
I have the Amsoil bypass filtration, and while it's design was for the purpose of extending the use of the oil, with all this discussion about the CJ oils I decided to NOT go for the extended oil life it would provide, instead, I change out my oil and both the Stratapore and bypass filter on the 7500 mile interval change.
Since my 2006 has the third injector event, and there is a ton of soot due to that event, and the acids/particles it brings into the picture that cause other damages, it seemed more prudent for the life of my engine to spend a little more money at each oil change.
I sample every oil change, all my samples have been excellent. While the testing company suggests that I could go longer on my changing mileage, I am more than comfortable with what I am doing and will continue to do my changes at the 7500 mile intervals the way I am doing them.
Rather than beat myself up with all the unknowns, it is just easier to go the route I have chosen, less worry to me. If, down the line I have problems that are caused by the CJ oil, I will have exceeded the recommendations of both Dodge and Cummins, and should have less issues with them if something happens during the span of the engine warranty.
CD
12-01-2009, 10:07 AM
#34
no 6 oh no:
So are you saying there is a problem with using ci? I assume you know what you are talking about but maybe provide a little more info or referrence when blasing someone like that. Thanks for adding your opinion because a lot of us are curious and would like the real facts.
So are you saying there is a problem with using ci? I assume you know what you are talking about but maybe provide a little more info or referrence when blasing someone like that. Thanks for adding your opinion because a lot of us are curious and would like the real facts.
What I was pointing out was the false assumption the CI would plug the CAT therefore thats the reason CJ was introduced. The CAT's were there when CJ wasn't, isn't that just a bit contradictory?
Everything that has been posted indicates the CJ formulation was to protect the DPF's not teh CAT, at least on the diesels. Running the CI oil in a gasser may have other results.
The other contradictory statement was about flat tappets, reduction of wear, additives, etc. The statement made it seem that CJ is going to eat the flat tappets and the cam, yet, most real diesels are flat tappet. That just seems way out of ball park for an assumption let alone post it.
SOMEBODY is going to copy those statements and they will float around forever clogging up threads with nonsense. Again, using the CJ diesel oil in car built in 1945 MAY have detrimental effects but NOT, it seems, in modern diesel engines. Somebody will read that and CJ-4 oil will be destroying engines right an left because it eats flat tappets and cams.
Opinions and opposing view points are great, they drive discussion. Everybody can post what they like, BUT, lets try to be a little circumspect on the context its posted in. Information is great also but it should pertain to the subject OR be duly noted it does not apply HERE. I am not without guilt, I get it wrong on occasion also.
Hey, I tried to nice and make a point. I didn't use
and 
or , but, C'mon man!! Think before hitting the enter key. 
12-01-2009, 10:26 AM
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You have now posted 2 totally irrelevant and blatantly incorrect statements that wil now forever be copied\pasted into these discussions. 
The CI-4 oil was used and reccomended for diesel engines WITH catalytic converters. How do you come up with this nonsense about plugging CAT's?
Cummins engines still use flat tappets and they use CJ-4 oil, can you be any more contradictory? Evidently Cummins knows somethign you don't about flat tappets and CJ-4, eh?
C'mon man!!!
The CI-4 oil was used and reccomended for diesel engines WITH catalytic converters. How do you come up with this nonsense about plugging CAT's?
Cummins engines still use flat tappets and they use CJ-4 oil, can you be any more contradictory? Evidently Cummins knows somethign you don't about flat tappets and CJ-4, eh?
C'mon man!!!
The change in ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus) levels was specifically done to protect the cats, that was the whole point. It was mandated by the EPA. Do a google search and find all the supporting evidence you need.
The issues with new oils and flat tappet cams has been a real problem for a few years now. Anybody who works on classic cars and older engines should know this. Companies like Comp Cams sell a ZDDP additive. Companies like Brad Penn sell special break in oils with higher levels. It's all about protecting the cam.
12-01-2009, 11:34 AM
#36
Well, apparently you have not done your home work.
The change in ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus) levels was specifically done to protect the cats, that was the whole point. It was mandated by the EPA. Do a google search and find all the supporting evidence you need.
The issues with new oils and flat tappet cams has been a real problem for a few years now. Anybody who works on classic cars and older engines should know this. Companies like Comp Cams sell a ZDDP additive. Companies like Brad Penn sell special break in oils with higher levels. It's all about protecting the cam.
The change in ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus) levels was specifically done to protect the cats, that was the whole point. It was mandated by the EPA. Do a google search and find all the supporting evidence you need.
The issues with new oils and flat tappet cams has been a real problem for a few years now. Anybody who works on classic cars and older engines should know this. Companies like Comp Cams sell a ZDDP additive. Companies like Brad Penn sell special break in oils with higher levels. It's all about protecting the cam.
Your applying gasoline emissions to diesel emissions and making them the same animal. They are not the same. Can't paint with the same brush.
Diesel emissions are much different from gasoline emissions and target different substances. The diesel CAT does not suffer the same issues of clogging as will a gas CAT therefore it really doesn't apply to using CI-4 oil which was formulated to be used in all emissions engines but specifically in a diesel application. CI was still reccomended for use in tier 2 and tier 3 diesel systems because the CAT's don't suffer from the additives.
AFAIK, neither do the tier 4 interim ones, but, the partuculate filters will. Quite possibly the urea injection systems may also not be compatible hence the CJ-4 formulation. Not the same technolgy as gasoline engines.
Same thing applies to gasoline technolgy vintage engines and flat tappets. Its not applicable because the oil is not meant to be used in them, but, it is meant to be used in emissions diesel engines which are designed for it. I am not disputing the differences in the gasoline engines but every statement you have made so far does not differentiate that point.
Why compare 30 year old gasoline technology to current diesel technology? Its apple to oranges.
12-01-2009, 01:10 PM
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Your applying gasoline emissions to diesel emissions and making them the same animal. They are not the same. Can't paint with the same brush.
The diesel CAT does not suffer the same issues of clogging as will a gas CAT
Why compare 30 year old gasoline technology to current diesel technology? Its apple to oranges.
The diesel CAT does not suffer the same issues of clogging as will a gas CAT
Why compare 30 year old gasoline technology to current diesel technology? Its apple to oranges.
Flat tappets are flat tappets. The technology is the same - and it's 30 years old.
12-01-2009, 04:13 PM
#38
Registered User
Many trucks Pryor to 2007.5 that have CAT's came filled from the Factory with CI-4+ oil and it was the required oil for diesel engines for many years. IIRC the reason for the CJ-4 oil was stuff in CI-4 oil would hurt/clog the DPF (the Diesel Particulate Filter aka DPF is not the same as a CAT) and thus the EPA mandate to remove the harmful stuff so that we now have CJ-4 LE oil.
12-01-2009, 04:15 PM
#39
Does it protect and function the same, probably not. Simple comparisons really don't work across 30 years because the parameters have changed so much.
12-01-2009, 04:37 PM
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I think this is the oil test y'all are looking for. Enjoy.
BlackBanshee
56 www.turbodieselregister.com TDR 57
ANALYSIS OF LUE OIL – PART TWO
by John Martin and Robert Patton
In Issue 54 we started talking about the cause and effect of the
lower 2007 diesel emission requirements. To examine the changes
to lube oils we contracted with a “hired gun,” John Martin, formerly
(25 years of service) of Lubrizol Corporation.
More on John’s credentials: He holds several patents and has
published many industry-related technical articles. he is a past
Chairman of the Cleveland Section of the Society of Automotive
Engineers (SAE) and both a Recognized Associate and a Silver
Spark Plug (their highest honor) of the Technology and Maintenance
Council of the American Trucking Associations. He is a recognized
lubrication consultant to both the racing (NASCAR and NHRA) and
trucking industries.
Last issue we blindfolded John and sent him oil analysis data from
eight unused lube oils and asked him to comment. Astutely he
picked the CJ-4 oil out of the bunch, identifi ed the Exxon/Mobil oil
by its unique blend of additives, and used price logic to determine
the lube oil from Wal-Mart. He didn’t hold anything back when he
stated, “I wouldn’t cross the street for a free crankcase of oils 3
(the Exxon/Mobil Delvac 1300 Super CI-4 plus) and oil 4 (the Shell
Rotella T that meets the new CJ-4 specifi cation) unless I was running
a fl eet of busses or garbage trucks.”
John commented on all eight of the lube oils with his favorites being
oils 1 and 8. Oil 1 was the Cummins Premium Blue CI-4 plus and
oil 8 was Shell Rotella T (synthetic) CI-4 plus. Price dependent,
John’s choice was oil 1.
TECHNICAL TOPICS . . . . Continued
13 More Oils to Analyze
Here are the 13 new oils for John to analyze. Prior to his receipt
of the data I reminded him of his Issue 54 comment about an oil
meeting an API performance specifi cation becoming a commodity.
As John discerns the new specifi cation CJ-4 oils from those that
are CI-4 and CI-4 plus it will be interesting to see if he stands by
the “lube oil as a commodity” statement.
Least Favorite
Okay, let’s talk about the oils in the table the editor provided. The
fi rst thing I noticed was a lack of total base number (TBN) in three of
the new samples. Remember, TBN is a good indicator of the amount
of detergent in the oil. Take a look at oils 4, 9, 11, and 17. These
are relatively low TBN’s for diesel oils, but high for passenger car
oils. Oils 9 and 11 also have very low phosphorus (P) and zinc (Z)
contents. Oil chemistries are very similar. I’m guessing that these
oils are CJ-4 oils, and when you look at the amount of additive, you
are less than impressed!
More on oil 17: Although it also has a relatively low TBN, contains
more P and Z and both boron (B) and molybdenum (moly) oxidation
inhibitors. You can bet your socks this is a CJ-4 oil, which relies
heavily on oxidation inhibitors to achieve the required performance.
Years ago both Caterpillar and Cummins had cam follower roller
pin problems (corrosion) with oils containing molydisulfi de, so I’d
be cautious about using this oil in older Caterpillar and Cummins
engines. I don’t care for this oil because of its low calcium (Ca)
detergent content, which is an indicator of the oil’s ability to neutralize
acids. Think of calcium as “Tums” for your engine! I’m going to
group these three (9, 11, 17) along with oil 4 from the last report
and speculate that these four oils are the new CJ-4 products. These
receive the name of “Ho-Hum” and are my least favorite lube oils.
Best
Let’s transition to the lube oils that I like the best. Boy, do I like oils
12, 13, 14, and 20! They are all loaded with big slugs of calcium
detergent (greater than 10 TBN) and contain lots of P and Z. I’ll bet
they are all CI-4 plus oils! My least favorite of this group is oil 13,
because it lacks the supplemental inhibitors the other oils contain.
However, it’s still a high performing Diesel engine oil. Group these
(12, 13, 14, 20) along with oils 1 and 8 from the last report and I
give these oils the category of best.
Within this group oils 12 and 14 are also excellent diesel oils supplied
by two different additive manufacturers (notice the different P to Z
ratios). Both oils use supplemental moly and healthy doses of P
and Z. Robert told me that Oil 12 was much more expensive than
oil 14, so I’ll guess oil 12 is a synthetic.
Oil 20 has the most additive of any oil we’ve seen. This is very
likely an expensive, but great, Diesel engine oil! Since the additive
package is so expensive, I’ll also bet this oil is a full synthetic. This
is the best Diesel oil in our comparison, but don’t use it in passenger
cars or light duty Diesels. Recall that really high detergent Diesel
oils sometimes don’t offer adequate protection for sliding cam
followers in these engines.
Good
Oils 15, 16, 18, 19, and 21 all fall into a group of oils with a TBN value
of approximately 10 (as do oils 2 and 10 from the last discussion),
which are probably of API CI-4 performance (not CI-4 Plus). Oils
15, 16, and 18 are my favorites of this group because they contain
the highest levels of calcium detergent. Oils 16 and 18 also contain
supplemental oxidation inhibitors, so I would rank them highest in
this group. But oil 15 has high P and Z, so it’s right in there also.
TDR 57 www.turbodieselregister.com 59
Price API Performance Category
$/gal. Oil # Brand/Description My Estimate Actual
Best
9.98 1 Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
17.36 8 Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
21.89 12 Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Syn. 5W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
9.98 13 Pennzoil Long Life 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
10.88 14 Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
35.00 20 Red Line Diesel Synthetic 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4
Good
10.36 2 NAPA Universal Fleet Plus 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
25.70 10 Amsoil 5W40 CI-4 CI-4 plus
13.51 15 Caterpillar DEO 15W40 CI-4 CI-4 plus
12.68 16 John Deere Plus-50 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
19.99 18 Lucas 15/40 Magnum 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
Satisfactory
9.68 3 Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
7.68 5 Wal Mart Super Tech Universal 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
9.52 6 Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
9.52 7 Motorcraft Super Duty 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
9.99 19 Pilot Premium HD 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
12.00 21 LiquiMoly Diesel Special 15W40 CI-4 CF-4
Ho-Hum (least favorite)
10.96 4 Shell Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 CJ-4 CJ-4
27.55 9 Amsoil Premium Synthetic 5W40 CJ-4 CJ-4
10.80 11 Castrol Tection 15W40 CJ-4 CJ-4
12.99 17 Chevron Delo 400 LE 15W40 CJ-4 CJ-4
TECHNICAL TOPICS . . . . Continued
Satisfactory
Oils 19 and 21 bring up the rear of the 10 TBN group (oil 19 doesn’t
even quite get up to 10 TBN). Both oils contain magnesium
detergents, which I mentioned earlier were better at passing
laboratory engine tests than providing good fi eld performance.
Looking back at last issue I’ll put these in with the oils 3. 5, 6 and
7 from the last table.
Okay, Robert has provided me with such an array of sample data that
I’m forced to make a table to rank order performance. I’ll fi ll out what
I think I know about these oils from TDR 56. The editor completed
the table by noting the API specifi cation for each lube oil.
I’m also guessing there isn’t one API CJ-4 oil
above the Ho-Hum performance level. Use these oils
only if you have particulate traps on your vehicles!
I’m also guessing there isn’t one API CJ-4 oil above the Ho-Hum
performance level. Use these oils only if you have particulate traps
on your vehicles! In fact, some large fl eet operators are running
API- CI-4 and CI-4 plus oils in their 2007 engines. They reason that
it is less expensive to clean their particulate traps more frequently
than it is to cut back on oil change intervals and stock two oils in
their maintenance facilities.
60 www.turbodieselregister.com TDR 57
TECHNICAL TOPICS . . . . Continued
JOHN’S CONCLUSION
Okay, now that Robert also put some pricing information in the table,
I can draw a few additional conclusions. For example, look at the
two Cummins/Valvoline oils I placed in my “Best” category. The
mineral oil version costs less than half of the synthetic version; yet
they both deliver equivalent performance. Do you really need that
synthetic oil? I doubt it.
While we’re at it, look at oils 18 and 20. These are goods oils, but
are they really worth 100 and 200% more than their competitors
because they are produced by “racing oil companies?” I doubt it.
What can racing oil companies possibly know that diesel engine
builders and oil companies don’t already know?
In that same vein, are oils 15 and 16 really worth more than their
competition because they carry the brand name of highly respected
diesel engine builders? I don’t think so! Compare these oils to oil 1
at $9.98 per gallon. That oil looks like a better deal. The only reason
to use oil sold by your engine manufacturer is if you anticipate you
will have warranty issues. Remember, these oils aren’t actually
produced by Cat, Cummins, or John Deere. They’re produced by
oil marketers such as Exxon, Mobil, or Valvoline.
Oil 21, LiquiMoly Diesel Special, doesn’t look like much of a bargain
to me. It’s a fairly expensive oil with only API CF-4 credentials.
There are better oils here to purchase. None of the CJ-4 oils look
like much of a deal to me either. You should only utilize these oils
if you have particulate traps on your vehicle. If you must use one
of these oils, I think the Castrol Tection (oil 11) or the Shell Rotella
T Triple Protection (oil 4) oils are the most cost-effective.
The best bargain on the table is the Wally World oil (oil 5) at $7.68
per gallon. But, if we’re talking about a vehicle you want to keep
in good shape for a long time, I would spend a little extra for better
performing oils. Oils 1, 13, 14 and oil 2 are oils which should deliver
above-average performance at a reasonable cost.
As to my earlier comments about oils becoming more like
commodities with each new specifi cation change, let’s look at the
table one last time. Notice all of the lower performing API CJ oils
huddled in a group at the bottom of the table. Also, notice that most
of the CI-4 plus oils are in a group at the high end of the performance
spectrum. (I suspect that the Red Line oil doesn’t have CI-4 plus
credentials simply because it was never tested.)
So, what oil should you use? I have a buddy at Freightliner who
has an interesting philosophy about purchasing engine oil. He goes
to the store and looks at all the oils with the latest performance
specifi cations (use CI-4 plus, not CJ-4). He then buys the oil that
is on sale at the time. That’s not a bad philosophy!
EDITOR’S CONCLUSION
(Just like Issue 56… this area is left intentionally blank. you will
have to draw your own.)
HOW ABOUT MY 6.7-LITER ENGINE….
If you have a 6.7-liter ’07.5 Turbo Diesel truck it is recommended
that you use a CJ-4 lube oil. Why? Again, issue 54’s article has the
reason behind CJ-4 oils.
“The EPA tightened their exhaust emissions thumbscrew on diesel
engines starting January 1, 2007, to reduce particulate matter
(PM) and oxides of Nitrogen (NOx) emissions. To meet these
requirements most diesel engine manufacturers are resorting to
the use of diesel particulate fi lters (DPFs). A DPF differs from the
catalytic converters we have used for years on gasoline engines in
that a DPF actually filters the entire diesel exhaust stream.
“On the surface you wouldn’t think this would be a big deal—
Europeans have been using DPFs for years. The difference is that
Europeans don’t accumulate mileage like Americans and they will
tolerate much more frequent service intervals. Our EPA has decreed
that the new DPFs must go 150,000 miles before needing removal
for cleaning. This means the soot collected in the DPF must be
burned off in the exhaust system frequently if trap life is to exceed
150,000 miles without removal and cleaning.
“I don’t have to tell you that diesel exhaust is relatively dirty.
It consists of lots of soot (that’s what turns your oil black) and
unburned residues from both the fuel and the oil. Sulfur in the
fuel can signifi cantly hamper DPF performance. That’s why ultra
low sulfur diesel (ULSD) fuel was introduced in the fall of 2006.
Phosphorus and sulfur in the lube oil can shorten DPF cleaning
intervals considerably. Phosphorus (P) can ‘glaze over’ and plug
the tiny holes in the DPF, making the openings effectively smaller
and quicker to plug. Sulfur can ‘mask’ the DPF, making it temporarily
less effective. Sulfated Ash (SA) in the lube is thought to build up
deposits on the DPF over time. These deposits that originate from
diesel fuel and lube oil then make the DPF effectively smaller and
quicker to plug.”
So the CJ-4 lube oil for the ’07.5 engines is a compromise.
Low P means the Feds placed a limit on the amount of
Zincdithiophosphate (Zinc and Phosphorus) additive which can be
utilized. ZDP is the most effective oxidation inhibitor and anti-wear
agent currently available. Additive manufacturers are now forced to
use more expensive and less effective ashless oxidation inhibitors
and antiwear agents.
Low sulfur means the new oils can’t rely on some of the least
expensive sulfur-based oxidation inhibitors they used in the past.
And, once again, many of the new ashless oxidation inhibitors
haven’t been thoroughly fi eld proven in heavily loaded trucks. Low S
also means more highly refi ned base oils, which is a positive thing.
Average base oil quality is now signifi cantly improved.
Low SA (less than 1 percent weight) effectively places a limit on the
amount of detergent (Calcium and Magnesium) which can be used in
these oils. But diesels love detergents. In over 25 years of inspecting
various diesel engines in the fi eld, I’ve yet to see one which didn’t
perform better on oils with higher levels of detergency.
BlackBanshee
56 www.turbodieselregister.com TDR 57
ANALYSIS OF LUE OIL – PART TWO
by John Martin and Robert Patton
In Issue 54 we started talking about the cause and effect of the
lower 2007 diesel emission requirements. To examine the changes
to lube oils we contracted with a “hired gun,” John Martin, formerly
(25 years of service) of Lubrizol Corporation.
More on John’s credentials: He holds several patents and has
published many industry-related technical articles. he is a past
Chairman of the Cleveland Section of the Society of Automotive
Engineers (SAE) and both a Recognized Associate and a Silver
Spark Plug (their highest honor) of the Technology and Maintenance
Council of the American Trucking Associations. He is a recognized
lubrication consultant to both the racing (NASCAR and NHRA) and
trucking industries.
Last issue we blindfolded John and sent him oil analysis data from
eight unused lube oils and asked him to comment. Astutely he
picked the CJ-4 oil out of the bunch, identifi ed the Exxon/Mobil oil
by its unique blend of additives, and used price logic to determine
the lube oil from Wal-Mart. He didn’t hold anything back when he
stated, “I wouldn’t cross the street for a free crankcase of oils 3
(the Exxon/Mobil Delvac 1300 Super CI-4 plus) and oil 4 (the Shell
Rotella T that meets the new CJ-4 specifi cation) unless I was running
a fl eet of busses or garbage trucks.”
John commented on all eight of the lube oils with his favorites being
oils 1 and 8. Oil 1 was the Cummins Premium Blue CI-4 plus and
oil 8 was Shell Rotella T (synthetic) CI-4 plus. Price dependent,
John’s choice was oil 1.
TECHNICAL TOPICS . . . . Continued
13 More Oils to Analyze
Here are the 13 new oils for John to analyze. Prior to his receipt
of the data I reminded him of his Issue 54 comment about an oil
meeting an API performance specifi cation becoming a commodity.
As John discerns the new specifi cation CJ-4 oils from those that
are CI-4 and CI-4 plus it will be interesting to see if he stands by
the “lube oil as a commodity” statement.
Least Favorite
Okay, let’s talk about the oils in the table the editor provided. The
fi rst thing I noticed was a lack of total base number (TBN) in three of
the new samples. Remember, TBN is a good indicator of the amount
of detergent in the oil. Take a look at oils 4, 9, 11, and 17. These
are relatively low TBN’s for diesel oils, but high for passenger car
oils. Oils 9 and 11 also have very low phosphorus (P) and zinc (Z)
contents. Oil chemistries are very similar. I’m guessing that these
oils are CJ-4 oils, and when you look at the amount of additive, you
are less than impressed!
More on oil 17: Although it also has a relatively low TBN, contains
more P and Z and both boron (B) and molybdenum (moly) oxidation
inhibitors. You can bet your socks this is a CJ-4 oil, which relies
heavily on oxidation inhibitors to achieve the required performance.
Years ago both Caterpillar and Cummins had cam follower roller
pin problems (corrosion) with oils containing molydisulfi de, so I’d
be cautious about using this oil in older Caterpillar and Cummins
engines. I don’t care for this oil because of its low calcium (Ca)
detergent content, which is an indicator of the oil’s ability to neutralize
acids. Think of calcium as “Tums” for your engine! I’m going to
group these three (9, 11, 17) along with oil 4 from the last report
and speculate that these four oils are the new CJ-4 products. These
receive the name of “Ho-Hum” and are my least favorite lube oils.
Best
Let’s transition to the lube oils that I like the best. Boy, do I like oils
12, 13, 14, and 20! They are all loaded with big slugs of calcium
detergent (greater than 10 TBN) and contain lots of P and Z. I’ll bet
they are all CI-4 plus oils! My least favorite of this group is oil 13,
because it lacks the supplemental inhibitors the other oils contain.
However, it’s still a high performing Diesel engine oil. Group these
(12, 13, 14, 20) along with oils 1 and 8 from the last report and I
give these oils the category of best.
Within this group oils 12 and 14 are also excellent diesel oils supplied
by two different additive manufacturers (notice the different P to Z
ratios). Both oils use supplemental moly and healthy doses of P
and Z. Robert told me that Oil 12 was much more expensive than
oil 14, so I’ll guess oil 12 is a synthetic.
Oil 20 has the most additive of any oil we’ve seen. This is very
likely an expensive, but great, Diesel engine oil! Since the additive
package is so expensive, I’ll also bet this oil is a full synthetic. This
is the best Diesel oil in our comparison, but don’t use it in passenger
cars or light duty Diesels. Recall that really high detergent Diesel
oils sometimes don’t offer adequate protection for sliding cam
followers in these engines.
Good
Oils 15, 16, 18, 19, and 21 all fall into a group of oils with a TBN value
of approximately 10 (as do oils 2 and 10 from the last discussion),
which are probably of API CI-4 performance (not CI-4 Plus). Oils
15, 16, and 18 are my favorites of this group because they contain
the highest levels of calcium detergent. Oils 16 and 18 also contain
supplemental oxidation inhibitors, so I would rank them highest in
this group. But oil 15 has high P and Z, so it’s right in there also.
TDR 57 www.turbodieselregister.com 59
Price API Performance Category
$/gal. Oil # Brand/Description My Estimate Actual
Best
9.98 1 Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
17.36 8 Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
21.89 12 Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Syn. 5W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
9.98 13 Pennzoil Long Life 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
10.88 14 Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
35.00 20 Red Line Diesel Synthetic 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4
Good
10.36 2 NAPA Universal Fleet Plus 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
25.70 10 Amsoil 5W40 CI-4 CI-4 plus
13.51 15 Caterpillar DEO 15W40 CI-4 CI-4 plus
12.68 16 John Deere Plus-50 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
19.99 18 Lucas 15/40 Magnum 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
Satisfactory
9.68 3 Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
7.68 5 Wal Mart Super Tech Universal 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
9.52 6 Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
9.52 7 Motorcraft Super Duty 15W40 CI-4 plus CI-4 plus
9.99 19 Pilot Premium HD 15W40 CI-4 CI-4
12.00 21 LiquiMoly Diesel Special 15W40 CI-4 CF-4
Ho-Hum (least favorite)
10.96 4 Shell Rotella T Triple Protection 15W40 CJ-4 CJ-4
27.55 9 Amsoil Premium Synthetic 5W40 CJ-4 CJ-4
10.80 11 Castrol Tection 15W40 CJ-4 CJ-4
12.99 17 Chevron Delo 400 LE 15W40 CJ-4 CJ-4
TECHNICAL TOPICS . . . . Continued
Satisfactory
Oils 19 and 21 bring up the rear of the 10 TBN group (oil 19 doesn’t
even quite get up to 10 TBN). Both oils contain magnesium
detergents, which I mentioned earlier were better at passing
laboratory engine tests than providing good fi eld performance.
Looking back at last issue I’ll put these in with the oils 3. 5, 6 and
7 from the last table.
Okay, Robert has provided me with such an array of sample data that
I’m forced to make a table to rank order performance. I’ll fi ll out what
I think I know about these oils from TDR 56. The editor completed
the table by noting the API specifi cation for each lube oil.
I’m also guessing there isn’t one API CJ-4 oil
above the Ho-Hum performance level. Use these oils
only if you have particulate traps on your vehicles!
I’m also guessing there isn’t one API CJ-4 oil above the Ho-Hum
performance level. Use these oils only if you have particulate traps
on your vehicles! In fact, some large fl eet operators are running
API- CI-4 and CI-4 plus oils in their 2007 engines. They reason that
it is less expensive to clean their particulate traps more frequently
than it is to cut back on oil change intervals and stock two oils in
their maintenance facilities.
60 www.turbodieselregister.com TDR 57
TECHNICAL TOPICS . . . . Continued
JOHN’S CONCLUSION
Okay, now that Robert also put some pricing information in the table,
I can draw a few additional conclusions. For example, look at the
two Cummins/Valvoline oils I placed in my “Best” category. The
mineral oil version costs less than half of the synthetic version; yet
they both deliver equivalent performance. Do you really need that
synthetic oil? I doubt it.
While we’re at it, look at oils 18 and 20. These are goods oils, but
are they really worth 100 and 200% more than their competitors
because they are produced by “racing oil companies?” I doubt it.
What can racing oil companies possibly know that diesel engine
builders and oil companies don’t already know?
In that same vein, are oils 15 and 16 really worth more than their
competition because they carry the brand name of highly respected
diesel engine builders? I don’t think so! Compare these oils to oil 1
at $9.98 per gallon. That oil looks like a better deal. The only reason
to use oil sold by your engine manufacturer is if you anticipate you
will have warranty issues. Remember, these oils aren’t actually
produced by Cat, Cummins, or John Deere. They’re produced by
oil marketers such as Exxon, Mobil, or Valvoline.
Oil 21, LiquiMoly Diesel Special, doesn’t look like much of a bargain
to me. It’s a fairly expensive oil with only API CF-4 credentials.
There are better oils here to purchase. None of the CJ-4 oils look
like much of a deal to me either. You should only utilize these oils
if you have particulate traps on your vehicle. If you must use one
of these oils, I think the Castrol Tection (oil 11) or the Shell Rotella
T Triple Protection (oil 4) oils are the most cost-effective.
The best bargain on the table is the Wally World oil (oil 5) at $7.68
per gallon. But, if we’re talking about a vehicle you want to keep
in good shape for a long time, I would spend a little extra for better
performing oils. Oils 1, 13, 14 and oil 2 are oils which should deliver
above-average performance at a reasonable cost.
As to my earlier comments about oils becoming more like
commodities with each new specifi cation change, let’s look at the
table one last time. Notice all of the lower performing API CJ oils
huddled in a group at the bottom of the table. Also, notice that most
of the CI-4 plus oils are in a group at the high end of the performance
spectrum. (I suspect that the Red Line oil doesn’t have CI-4 plus
credentials simply because it was never tested.)
So, what oil should you use? I have a buddy at Freightliner who
has an interesting philosophy about purchasing engine oil. He goes
to the store and looks at all the oils with the latest performance
specifi cations (use CI-4 plus, not CJ-4). He then buys the oil that
is on sale at the time. That’s not a bad philosophy!
EDITOR’S CONCLUSION
(Just like Issue 56… this area is left intentionally blank. you will
have to draw your own.)
HOW ABOUT MY 6.7-LITER ENGINE….
If you have a 6.7-liter ’07.5 Turbo Diesel truck it is recommended
that you use a CJ-4 lube oil. Why? Again, issue 54’s article has the
reason behind CJ-4 oils.
“The EPA tightened their exhaust emissions thumbscrew on diesel
engines starting January 1, 2007, to reduce particulate matter
(PM) and oxides of Nitrogen (NOx) emissions. To meet these
requirements most diesel engine manufacturers are resorting to
the use of diesel particulate fi lters (DPFs). A DPF differs from the
catalytic converters we have used for years on gasoline engines in
that a DPF actually filters the entire diesel exhaust stream.
“On the surface you wouldn’t think this would be a big deal—
Europeans have been using DPFs for years. The difference is that
Europeans don’t accumulate mileage like Americans and they will
tolerate much more frequent service intervals. Our EPA has decreed
that the new DPFs must go 150,000 miles before needing removal
for cleaning. This means the soot collected in the DPF must be
burned off in the exhaust system frequently if trap life is to exceed
150,000 miles without removal and cleaning.
“I don’t have to tell you that diesel exhaust is relatively dirty.
It consists of lots of soot (that’s what turns your oil black) and
unburned residues from both the fuel and the oil. Sulfur in the
fuel can signifi cantly hamper DPF performance. That’s why ultra
low sulfur diesel (ULSD) fuel was introduced in the fall of 2006.
Phosphorus and sulfur in the lube oil can shorten DPF cleaning
intervals considerably. Phosphorus (P) can ‘glaze over’ and plug
the tiny holes in the DPF, making the openings effectively smaller
and quicker to plug. Sulfur can ‘mask’ the DPF, making it temporarily
less effective. Sulfated Ash (SA) in the lube is thought to build up
deposits on the DPF over time. These deposits that originate from
diesel fuel and lube oil then make the DPF effectively smaller and
quicker to plug.”
So the CJ-4 lube oil for the ’07.5 engines is a compromise.
Low P means the Feds placed a limit on the amount of
Zincdithiophosphate (Zinc and Phosphorus) additive which can be
utilized. ZDP is the most effective oxidation inhibitor and anti-wear
agent currently available. Additive manufacturers are now forced to
use more expensive and less effective ashless oxidation inhibitors
and antiwear agents.
Low sulfur means the new oils can’t rely on some of the least
expensive sulfur-based oxidation inhibitors they used in the past.
And, once again, many of the new ashless oxidation inhibitors
haven’t been thoroughly fi eld proven in heavily loaded trucks. Low S
also means more highly refi ned base oils, which is a positive thing.
Average base oil quality is now signifi cantly improved.
Low SA (less than 1 percent weight) effectively places a limit on the
amount of detergent (Calcium and Magnesium) which can be used in
these oils. But diesels love detergents. In over 25 years of inspecting
various diesel engines in the fi eld, I’ve yet to see one which didn’t
perform better on oils with higher levels of detergency.
12-01-2009, 04:46 PM
#41
DTR 1st Sergeant
I read an article in the TDR in which some oil guru did an independant test on 20 oils, not knowing the brands that were in the test. The Valvoline Premium Blue 15w-40 was in the top 5-7 amongst the higher priced synthetics. I then switched to it from Amsoil. Price was also a factor for me.
For the OP, I think if you use it and stick to lower change intervals, you are just fine. The only clear advantage to the Amsoil is that you can run it about twice as far between changes and has the good amount of ZDDP for engine protection. That is most important to cam/tappet wear.
12-01-2009, 07:38 PM
#44
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Got a link so you all can download it for yourselves...
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf
Enjoy!
BlackBanshee
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf
Enjoy!
BlackBanshee
12-01-2009, 09:23 PM
#45
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The materials are not the same as they were 30 years ago, thats the key. Same as valves, same as valve seats, the metallic composition of the affected components has changed to compensate for the removal of lead, ZDDP, etc. The concept may be the same, but, metallurgical composition of the parts and the implementation has changed drastically.
Does it protect and function the same, probably not. Simple comparisons really don't work across 30 years because the parameters have changed so much.
I can't help but think the parts used in a Cummins are of the same quality as can be had through the racing aftermarket.
Diesel engines are clearly not the same as gas engines. But I would think some components and operations would be pretty similar. Especially when we're talking about something this general and basic.
I'll be changing the oil in my truck pretty soon. And I'll send sample to Blackstone. I'll let you know how it comes out.