Dr. Evil

[quote author=Hairy1 link=board=20;threadid=23603;start=0#msg222572 date=1071238934]
If all else fails call Valvoline Tech line..........[/quote]

I was going to do that last night but it was too late....let us know...

Dr. Evil

[quote author=The Boss Hog link=board=20;threadid=23603;start=0#msg222553 date=1071237066]
[quote author=Dr. Evil link=board=20;threadid=23603;start=0#msg222306 date=1071191174]
Mr. Hog,

My statement is answering the question that was asked...which was "Is Valvoline Extreme Blue a true level 4 synthetic? " To which I responded that I believe it is a Group 3. FYI, just because an oil says its "fully Synthetic" does NOT mean that its a true group 4 synthetic.

I looked at the link, and while it says its made from syn basestocks, it doesnt mention anything about being a Group 4, or even which base stocks it uses. If it actually was a Group 4 dont ya think they'd be advertising that fact, just like the other companies do???

I still stand by my statement that Delvac 1 and Amsoil are the standard when comparing oils.

Lightman, u know a lot more than I do - care to comment???
[/quote]

Mr. Evil,
Answering a question with a question may, in some circles, be an effective debating technique but it does nothing to resolve the original question.

Lightman,
You have stated twice that Valvoline Extreme Blue is a Group III oil. I have been unable to find any specific information or report that states it is Group III or Group IV. As I am interested using a true Group IV, I would appreciate it if you could tell me where you got your information.

The Boss Hog
(Hoping to learn . . )
[/quote]

Boss Hog,

Hoping to learn?, well Im trying to give you the answer and you dont want to accept the fact that other people have the answer...hows that learning??

Id like for you to tell me just how I answered a question with a question........ ???

Hairy1

Valvoline said "They do not give out that information as to wheather it is a 100% synthetic.....it's considered propritory informatio." They also said " That the group 3-4 and some group 5 are all considered 100% Synthetic"......so enough said.......as they say..."run what ya brung" and the choice is yours

bulabula

[quote author=Hairy1 link=board=20;threadid=23603;start=15#msg222589 date=1071240800]
Valvoline said "They do not give out that information as to wheather it is a 100% synthetic.....it's considered propritory informatio." [/quote]They did answer your question by beating around the bush, its legalese longhand for: no.

Dr. Evil

Thats funny - perhaps its propritary info because they dont want to admit that its not a group 4 synthetic like you guys think it is...see, you cant even get a straight answer from the oils manufacturer....that should make you wonder a few things.

Again we are back at the original question of the thread " Is Valvoline Extreme Blue true level 4 synthetic? " the answer is NO, its a group 3 - and your call to Valvoline confirms exactly what Lightman and I have been saying since this thread STARTED.... I agree "enough said"....

Thanks for getting the OFFICIAL word Hairy1....

Hairy1

Why doesn't someone else contact Amsoil and ask them the same question?

Dr. Evil

I give up....

bulabula

[quote author=Hairy1 link=board=20;threadid=23603;start=15#msg222603 date=1071242021]
Why doesn't someone else contact Amsoil and ask them the same question?[/quote]Go look at www.amsoil.com. I don't think Amsoil will touch a question concerning a competitors oil composition.

Also try www.technilube.com for some more Amsoil info, but its kind of difficult to navigate in.

Edit: I wasn't trying to be cute or anything; but if you call Amsoil, they'll be more than happy tell you and to even mail you stuff describing that their products are Group IV PAO/Ester based true synthetics.

As I see it, the smoke and mirror answer received was sort of why Mobil pressed the issue of true syn oil many years ago. Their product was a true Group IV syn and other so-called syn oils were advertised as full syn oils with all the benefits just like M1; but sold at significantly lower prices. I think M1 wanted a marketable distinction between Group III's and IV's to justify the higher cost of producing pure syn oil. FTC basically said no.

The Boss Hog

Dr. Evil,
OK, let's try again

[quote author=The Boss Hog link=board=20;threadid=23603;start=0#msg222302 date=1071190597]

Dr. Evil,
Could you (or Lightman) tell me where you got your info?
...
[/quote]

Just for clarity, I am asking you for your source that specifically labels Valvoline Extreme Blue as a Group III oil or that specifically states it is not a Group IV.

The Boss Hog
(Thank you . . .)

bulabula

I bet the mods' got the handcuffs out and are watching this thread like a hawk!

Lightman

Listen guys, this is something that was hashed out a year or two ago when the oil came out. Most of us that keep up with diesel oils that were into this stuff back then have been through this and accept that valvoline prem blue extreme is a group 3. If you guys really don't believe me I could try to dig up some of the old info but I promise, it's NOT a group 4.

Hairy - of course they can all be called '100% synthetic' due to the court case that bulabula originally mentioned, that involved castrol syntec.

Tartarus - There was a place in tx called tri-con that was selling d1 for 18, but they were the low. I buy mine at www.avlube.com . Quick shipping, good service, and it's $20.75 a gallon there. Quick question, why in the world would you be paying $16 for extreme when you could get amsoil hdd/marine 15w40 for $15, and it's a full PAO/Ester group 4?

Hairy1

From Amsoil web site
All Synthetics Are NOT Created Equal

In the past, it was always believed that purchasing a synthetic oil meant just that, you were buying an oil that was man made rather than a petroleum that was pumped out of the ground. As of a few years ago, this all changed with the reformulation of Castrol Syntec. They had changed their formula from a PAO Base Stock, which was one of the most commonly used Base Stocks at the time, to a Petroleum Base that had gone through a process called Hydrocracking. This process refines the oil very well, to a point that Castrol called it a Synthetic. While doing some testing Mobil 1 discovered the formula change and took Castrol to court claiming that they were false advertising the oil as a Synthetic, since it's Base Stock was made from a Petroleum. Mobil's stand basically said that a "synthetic" oil is something man made in a lab to certain specification that cannot be found in nature that way, which was the common thought even consumers had at the time. Castrol's stand was that this process the oil went through was so refined that it no longer resembled anything in nature, therefore it was a synthetic. Because the API couldn't come up with a good definition of a synthetic themselves, they accepted Castrol's definition.

This type of oil is cheaper to produce than the PAO synthetic, but unfortunately the consumer never benefited from the cheaper manufacturing costs, while the oil manufacturers most likely makes a bigger profit from each sale. This has now changed how oil is made and sold, and it's classification. There are five Groups of oils. Group I rarely is used anymore, while Group II is your common Petroleum oil. This "hydrocracked" oil is commonly referred to as a Group III oil, while the PAO Synthetics are a Group IV. Group V oils do exist, but are uncommon, and typically not often used for automotive use.

From the information given to me last, EVERY synthetic on the market today has converted over to this Group III oil, with the exception of most of the Amsoil line, Mobil 1, and a few other specialty oils, usually more difficult to find. Amsoil's XL-7500 line of oil is a Group III oil. It is not designed for the extended drains that their other lines are, therefore, the Group III formula is perfect for it's 7,500 mile or six month drain interval. When this oil became a Group III oil, Amsoil did lower their price, unlike the competition. Amsoil's standard 25,000 mile oil and their Series 2000 is a Group IV "Genuine PAO Formulated Synthetic" oil.

Group III oils have been around for a few years now, and are being used in other applications as well, such as Transmission Fluids and Gear Lubes, however, as time continues, it is being found and noted that they do not last as well as the PAO Synthetics. And this seems logical, it is still a Petroleum based oil, and suffers the same breakdown temps as the less refined Group II oils. For this reason, these fluids are being beefed up with additives. But rather than slowly breaking down over time, like the Group IV fluids, these fluids tend to remain stable until the additives wear out and rapidly drop in their performance and protection. For this reason, many manufacturers who were putting a synthetic into their products for the added protection, are finding that they are not getting what they expected, and it is predicted that many future Owner's Manuals will stop requiring merely a "synthetic" oil, but a Group IV synthetic oil.

Below are some comparisons of oils you might now even be using. This data was compiled in the Spring of 2003 by Amsoil Dealer George Kimball. Note how each rates, the "base" the oil really is, and the cost comparison of using a superior product: Amsoil!

COMMON 5W-30 SYNTHETIC OILS

Product Name Base Viscosity Index Pour Point °C (°F) Volatility % Weight Loss Four Ball Wear TBN Service Life Suggested Cost (Qt) Cost/10 Miles
Para. 1 Para. 3

Amsoil
XL-7500 (XLF) Group III/
Hydrocracked 196 -51 (-60) 8.8% 0.35 0.38 10.1 7500 Miles/
6 Months $5.20 4.0 cents
Amsoil (ASL) Group IV/
POA 182 -51 (-60) 6.9% 0.35 0.40 >11.0 25,000 Miles/1 Year $5.85 2.6 cents
Mobil 1 Group IV/
PAO 168 -48 (-54) 9.2% 0.35 0.60 8.5 Mfg. Rec. $4.78 3.7 cents
Pennzoil Synthetic Group III/
Hydrocracked 161 -48 (-54) 5.7% 0.40 0.60 10.0 Mfg. Rec. $4.49 3.6 cents
Valvoline SynPower Group III/
Hydrocracked 164 -44 (-47) 13.1% 0.35 0.55 8.9 Mfg. Rec. $4.48 3.6 cents
Castrol Syntec Group III/
Hydrocracked 147 -39 (-38) 10.0% 0.40 0.61 10.0 Mfg. Rec. $4.47 3.6 cents
Quaker State Full Synthetic Group III/
Hydrocracked 183 -46 (-51) 10.2% 0.35 0.55 7.7 Mfg. Rec. $3.97 3.2 cents

COMMON 10W-30 SYNTHETIC OILS

Product Name Base Viscosity Index Volatility % Weight Loss Four Ball Wear TBN Service Life Suggested Cost (Qt) Cost/10 Miles

Amsoil
XL-7500 (XLT) Group III/
Hydrocracked 163 4.7% 0.38 10.2 7500 Miles/
6 Months $5.20 4.0 cents
Amsoil (ATM) Group IV/
POA 167 6.6% 0.35 >12.2 25,000 Miles/1 Year $5.85 2.6 cents
Mobil 1 Group IV/
PAO 147 11.1% 0.35 8.5 5000 Miles $4.78 5.4 cents
Castrol Group III/
Hydrocracked 159 5.47% 6.81 5000 Miles $4.48 5.1 cents
Shell Group III/
Hydrocracked 140 5000 Miles $4.97 5.6 cents
Pennzoil Group III/
Hydrocracked 150 9.5% 0.65 7.18 5000 Miles $4.49 5.1 cents
Valvoline Group III/
Hydrocracked 140 8.3% 0.40 6.85 5000 Miles $4.48 5.1 cents
Havoline Group III/
Hydrocracked 148 5000 Miles $3.48 4.1 cents
Quaker State Group III/
Hydrocracked 148 12.27% 5000 Miles $3.97 4.6 cents

Amsoil prices were the current suggested Retail Prices in Spring of 2003.
Other prices were taken from Discount Auto Parts or Walmart during the same time period.

Lightman

Thanks Hairy, lol..

"Valvoline said the oil, formulated with a blend of polyalphaolefin and hydrocracked base stocks, was developed especially for use in engines equipped with exhaust gas recirculation (EGR), a technology used to meet 2002 emissions limits."

According to the Valvoline MSDS the oil consists of the following:

63% - 73% Hydrotreated heavy paraffinic base stock.
16% - 26% Synthetic additive (not specific)
13% - 17% Detergents/Dispersants

There you go folks - hydrocracked basestocks=petroleum/fossil fuel base.

Prem blue extreme is a group 3 oil like rotella T synthetic. Nobody here is saying it's a bad oil, I just think its a bad choice for $16, or if you are wanting the best oil possible for your truck. Some people I've talked to get premium blue extreme for $12/gal, one in Philly was as low as $9.99/gal for the extreme 5w40 synthetic.. Maybe at those prices it's worth it..

I'll stick with my Delvac 1

Jonesey

My take on the whole thing is who cares? Use which brand you are comfortable with. The simple fact is the engine will outlast the truck whether you use dino, group III or group IV.

Myself I have no intention of ever switching to synthetic. I personally think it is just a waste of money. I know, I know. You spent forty grand on your rig why not spend a little more on oil. If Cummins recommended nothing but synthetic then I would do so. Until then it will be Delo 400 with 5000 mile change intervals.

Dr. Evil

[quote author=Jonesey link=board=20;threadid=23603;start=15#msg222662 date=1071248931]
If Cummins recommended nothing but synthetic then I would do so. Until then it will be Delo 400 with 5000 mile change intervals.
[/quote]

It wasnt too long ago that Cummins did NOT recommend synthetics for use in any of their engines....synthetics were too "slippery".....