I had read the '03 trucks have the American Axle limited slip that does not use clutches, it is gear actuated. Mine seems pretty good, the truck gets sideways easy when it's damp out. Also there is no friction modifier required when you change the rear diff fluid as in the previous trucks with LS.

 

my 00 gasser 3/4 ton LS equipped Dana 60 SUCKED! i need 4wd all the time!
my 03 ctd 3/4 ton LS equipped AAM 1150 will crawl all over the place and acts like a locker more than a limited slip!
same place as b4 the 00 needed e-brake or 4wd new on just GOES!

 

my 98 and 95 both have the LS rearend and both are really tight. I have been in deep mud with both along with other ditched and holes.even in my 94 which has the open diff is usually good w/o 4x4. but my 93 with the open diff gets stuck on wet grass. I need an air locker ;D
DM01

 

As always, thanks for the help. At least now i don't feel so upset about getting stuck. I had too much faith in my LSD and just got stuck. The mud wasn't too deep, just to the bottom of the rims, and i also got out and watched those two tires spin. So, if this happens again, the correct proceedure is to increase drag on the rear end by "lightly engaging" the parking brake? The front end is on its own and doesn't have the ability to slip?
If there isn't a clean fix for this (driver able to resolve), i believe the next thing i bolt onto to the truck will be a winch.
Then, as a follow on to this thread, any body reccomend a good winch system??

Thanks again.
HOOAH!

 

I'm not too impressed with the LS, either.

I've already lost traction in a dry (but uneven) yard because the weight tranferred off the wheel, and there I sat--one wheel spinning freely. I'm not talking much unevenness, either. The ultra-stiff hydroformed frame wouldn't allow enough flexing for that wheel to have traction. But nonetheless, I could tell no difference between it and an open differential which should be interesting this winter. I figured this thing would be totally helpless without a LS and now it looks like it will be helpless with one.

 

Doug,

Yes it sounds like we agree on what is happening but are disagreeing on a term, tourque. My physics is a bit rusty so I could be wrong here. ;D

Torque is a measure of force only, not work. If we have a freely spinning wheel in space, it's torque at it's edge can be measured. If both wheels are locked together and turning at the exact same speed (and everything else is essentially tha same) then the torque present at each wheel is the same. If one is in the air and spinning freely, it still has the same torque present.

 

hey, no harm in rust. I'll explain in a bit more detail. class, you may go to sleep now...

[quote author=Berak link=board=20;threadid=18269;start=15#msg171823 date=1060744403]
Torque is a measure of force only, not work.
[/quote]
You're exactly right about torque being a force. twisting force to be exact. same as a mechanical moment.
well, such as wheel free spinning in space has angular momentum according to its angular velocity and moment of inirtia. but it doesn't "have" torque. A certain amount of torque over a prescribed period of time (work) would be required to stop the wheel of course. And (due to friction) a certain amount of torque must be applied by the engine to keep it spining. But bearing and gear friction aside, by Newtons 2nd law, Force = mass times acceleration, and the tire is just sitting there doing nothing (it is just spinning at a constant speed so acceleration is zero) then we have zero force! except of course to overcome friction. this special case of newtons 2nd law is just a re-statement of Newtons first law which is that a body in motion or at rest will stay in motion or at rest unless a force acts upon it. Only a few foot pounds of torqe would be applied to that tire by the engine to overcome friction losses and to keep the wheel spinning in space.
yes. if each tire's coefficient of friction to the ground is the same, then indeed they will split the force (torque) applied by the engine
hmmm. I'm afraid not. such a wheel has zero torque being applied to it by the engine via the axle. no force is being exerted because it spins freely (friction losses aside). there is no traction from the road to "push back" on the engine so the engine doesn't push on the wheel.

suppose the opposite wheel has traction to the ground, and the engine is pushing with 200 ft lbs of torque (ignore gears and torque multiplication for now). If what you say is true, then each tire would receive 100 ft lbs of torque. Or maybe each would receive 200 -- both are incorrect. You see, if I apply 100 or 200 ft lbs of torque to a tire that spins freely in the air, what would happen? it would quickly spin up to a very fast rpm. But clearly it cannot because it is locked to the other wheel. so you see that the free wheeling wheel sees no torque from the engine. the tire that grips the ground is what gets the torque.

remember newtons third law: if an object exerts a force on a body, that body exerts an equal and opposite force on the object. The point is that just because x ft lbs of torque is being applied by the engine to the locked axle doesn't mean the two tires split that evenly, see the same amount of torque or whatever. remember that the road has to push back on the tire in order for the axle to apply torque to that tire. So the torque to the wheels is applied according to how the road pushes back on the tire. ergo, traction! thats why spinning tires don't move the truck -- very little torque is being applied to the ground.

 

I think you have a couple of threads developing, but I guess I have to chime in anyway on thread #2.

A free spinning tire can have torque...if its accelerating. You're assuming that 200 ft-lb or whatever number you estimate is actually being developed by the engine. Again, if it doesn't accelerate (change RPM), no torque is developed. A LS can evenly distribute torque between wheels on the same axle. As long as one doesn't start to speed up (accelerate) too much. When you apply the brake, you're helping even out the torque between the two wheels. Heck I can evenly send torque to two wheel with no traction. Its called being stuck and both spinning at the same rate.

Now on to lockers. If you want to make sure you have the POTENTIAL to break an axle, put in a locker. Depending on how nasty a place you want to get your truck into, you can get most or all of your torque being sent to one axle and BANG. I doubt a single axle on our Dodges can take the full fury of the CTD. With a locker and the CTD, just make sure you go light on the throttle. If you don't agree that a locker increases your risk of breaking hard parts, spend a little more time off-road...or look in a 4wd magazine and ask yourself why so many folks as selling axle upgrade stuff.

 

[quote author=NC_Mog link=board=20;threadid=18269;start=15#msg171880 date=1060765751]
If you don't agree that a locker increases your risk of breaking hard parts, spend a little more time off-road...or look in a 4wd magazine and ask yourself why so many folks as selling axle upgrade stuff.
[/quote]

I can relate to that remark

Let see, that I can remember: 7 Front Dana 60 axle shafts and 4 Dana 60 rear axle shafts 8)

Since then I have gone to a Dana 70 rear and to Dana 70 out front shafts. Oh ya this is in my 1983 440 powered 1 ton.

Oh and for thoose that think the NP205 transfer case is indistructable, NOT

You gotta love air lockers, you either go or......... :-

 

[quote author=NC_Mog link=board=20;threadid=18269;start=15#msg171880 date=1060765751]
A free spinning tire can have torque...if its accelerating.
[/quote]
just to clarify, the tire itself doesn't "have" torque. torque must be applied to the tire in order to accomplish acceleration or to overcome friction. Which is what we all mean by "having" torque -- I just wanted to be precise. But yes, anything that acclerates has to have a force applied.
Yes, that is an important point to make. I was assuming that the road was pushing back on the engine and that the engine was delivering 200 ft lbs.
for a free spinning wheel, yes. However, your comments (about breaking axles) imply, you can apply large amounts of torque to a wheel that does not accelerate (i.e. a stuck one), just like you can lean on a wall (apply a force) when the wall does not move.
;D ;D ;D. yea, thats a very good description
These are excelent comments. The very reason you have a locker is for those situations where one wheel is stuck and the other one spins. The locker puts all the torque to the wheel that is stuck, leaving the other wheel with essentially zero torque.

 

Well then couple of questions. DOnt worry about the laws and stuff i totally understood that...really I did

but to the lockers, so if these break your axle whats the point of them? Would these bee a good or bad upgrade in a truck?

Second question. If the locker puts the same amount of torque to both wheels, will one spin wildly when you turn a corner?

3rd. Is there a way to turn the locker on and off?

4 Whats an air locker? is this an answer to question 3? haha

 

[quote author=kingofdodge7131 link=board=20;threadid=18269;start=15#msg172067 date=1060802878]
but to the lockers, so if these break your axle whats the point of them? Would these bee a good or bad upgrade in a truck?
[/quote]
the point is that the locker prevents the very condition that a normal differential is so good at: letting one wheel spin freely while the other wheel sits on perfectly good traction surface unable to do any good. they are used offroad only and in many cases, only engaged when necessary. Its a very good upgrade for a truck if you are very serious in your offroad expectations. Its a very unnecessary upgrade if you don't go offroad or do so infrequently and casually. Its a very bad upgrade if you drive on pavement all the time.

Because the system acts like straight (locked) shaft between th two tires, torque will dynamically shift to the tire with the most traction. thats both the advantage and the risk: if you are in a situation with only one wheel having traction to the ground, all the engine torque (that you give with your foot) will be directed at that wheel. hence the care you must take in understanding how the locker works to avoid snapping an axle shaft. Lockers don't break axles. drivers break axles ;D

Here's a couple of axle breaking situations:

1. you are stuck with only one wheel with traction. If you power through this to get unstuck (truck doesn't move and the tire doesn't break loose) then you are unleashing all the fury of the CTD on one axle shaft. The CTD will probably win that contest.

2. you are powering up a steep incline where it would be a disaster to stop or slow down, and the terrain suddenly puts all the vehicle weight on one tire. since you're powering through that situation, you will in one momkent unleash all the fury of the CTD on one axle shaft.
well thats the point of understanding the theory -- the locker does NOT put the same torque to both wheels. The locker guarentees that both wheels turn together as if there was a solid shaft between them (i.e. no diff). the point here is that in a corner, one wheel WILL slip because something has to give. you only use a locker when you are in an offroad situation that requries it.
Under normal driving conditions the locker is not engaged. otherwise on dry pavement you would rip things apart. They are actuated on demand by the driver via an electric solenoid or by an air operated mechanism, depending on what type you have.

 

Not all lockers are selectable, a mater a fact most are not. The Detroit is the most popular and about the strongest of the automatic type. The "try" to recognize differences in force from the two wheels when turning a corner and unlock, but you usually have to play with the throttle a little. Put a heavy trailer on and they don't work well at all. I wouldn't recomend an automatic locker for any truck that is mostly street driven, and never in the front axle.

ARB makes the Air Locker which you can lock and unlock with the push of the button. Thats the only way to go for a dual purpose truck. But the truth is that 95% of people have no use for one and you are just wasting your money. Unless you go off road on uneven ground regularaly don't bother.

This kind of stuff:

 

Could be your tires done you in. You gots to have some traction for all the mechanical stuff to work. Rams don't some with anything near a mud tire, mostly a dry pavement tread. Skinny and lugged - that's what's on the mud boggers in LA. You don't have to jack up or pop the diff cover. Put it on some loose dirt and gas on it. Should have 2 chewed out places from rears, not one.

I notice that the AA TracRite isn't as apt to spin me out on wet pavement with too much throttle as did Dana with clutch paks on '01. The '01 was a killer and I never let my wife drive it because of that. I like driving sideways if cops ain't lookin.

 

as a follow on to this thread, any body reccomend a good winch system??

With these trucks weighing at least 7,500+ lbs., If I was getting a winch, i'd have to get the Warn 15,000. You could probably get by with a 12,000lb one, but the 15,000 would for sure do the job. The rule with winches is that you should get one rated 1.5 times the weight of your truck.