Binding and Snapping in 4Wheel Drive Turns
12-05-2009, 08:57 PM
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Binding and Snapping in 4Wheel Drive Turns
My 04.5 2500 4x4 has begun binding and snapping somewhere in the front drivetrain during turns while in 4Wheel drive. I originally thought this was due to worn axle u joints. Last night I replaced both axle u joints. I still have binding and snapping in the drivetrain while turning. There has never been any noise from the drivetrain during turns while in 2wheel drive.
What I did notice while tightening the axle/hub nut on the passenger side was that I could force the axle to rotate while turning the nut even with the transfer case set in 4 high with the driver side tire fully resting on the floor. It sounded like something in the differential was slipping and making a ratcheting sound.
Not sure where to start chasing this one. Differential, transfer case? Any ideas out there?
What I did notice while tightening the axle/hub nut on the passenger side was that I could force the axle to rotate while turning the nut even with the transfer case set in 4 high with the driver side tire fully resting on the floor. It sounded like something in the differential was slipping and making a ratcheting sound.
Not sure where to start chasing this one. Differential, transfer case? Any ideas out there?
12-06-2009, 01:56 AM
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Pull the diff cover and check the gears. If you are turning in 4wd and tires are grabbing traction you can put a lot of stress on the gears. Granted they should hold up to it but...
12-07-2009, 01:35 PM
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In 4WD the 'binding and snapping' is caused by torque windup in the the driveline and then the abrupt release of it when the tractive adhesion of the tires to pavement/surface is overcome. In other words if your in 4WD you are running at skid torque no matter what speed and usually even when perfectly straight (tires at different pressures and different radii due to wear and uneven loading).
Dont do this. Your truck doesnt like this.
Dont do this. Your truck doesnt like this.
12-07-2009, 08:34 PM
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Binding and Snapping in 4 Wheel Drive Turns
Thanks for the feedback everyone, its appreciated! Kinda think I may not have provided enough info. This is and always has been, my ranch truck. It has been through plenty of slick pasture, mud, snow, sand and of course highway trailer towing. I have put every single mile on this truck, all 150K worth, and this isn't a normal 4x operational function. I broke something somewhere, just truing to find it.
This level of binding has just recently developed. It first did this going into a very gradual turn on wet and muddy pasture grass under loss of traction at the rear; that's why I went to 4x. This is also under not much more than idle throttle, with stock Michelin tires. As you all know, not much traction goin on there! This binding is severe enough that it feels like something is going to break if I were to push it. This is not even close to being a tight turn event, or on a dry surface. That's why I changed out the worn u joints.
I am much more concerned that I could not even get the axle nut close to torqued with a 3/4 inch drive bar without the axle turning while the transfer case was in 4 high. Had to put a punch in the yoke to get the axle to stop slipping and the nut torqued. That indicates to me that there is abnormal "slippage" in the drivetrain somewhere? Unfortunately, I couldn't see if the front driveshaft was turning during this process. Must admit I know nothing about these front drivetrains on this generation Ram.
FYI, I have been though some of the other 04.5 Cummins/Ram episodes. 2 lift pumps before going to a Glacier pump; melted power wires at the steering column with loss of interior fan/blower motor (now on my third motor); on my third water pump; on my second serpentine tensioner; 2nd cooling fan clutch (fan cut the wires) headlight switch, etc.
The Cummins is great, it's the rest of the truck that is somewhat annoying! Although, for the most part, the engineering is more DIY friendly than any other truck I have ever owned!
This level of binding has just recently developed. It first did this going into a very gradual turn on wet and muddy pasture grass under loss of traction at the rear; that's why I went to 4x. This is also under not much more than idle throttle, with stock Michelin tires. As you all know, not much traction goin on there! This binding is severe enough that it feels like something is going to break if I were to push it. This is not even close to being a tight turn event, or on a dry surface. That's why I changed out the worn u joints.
I am much more concerned that I could not even get the axle nut close to torqued with a 3/4 inch drive bar without the axle turning while the transfer case was in 4 high. Had to put a punch in the yoke to get the axle to stop slipping and the nut torqued. That indicates to me that there is abnormal "slippage" in the drivetrain somewhere? Unfortunately, I couldn't see if the front driveshaft was turning during this process. Must admit I know nothing about these front drivetrains on this generation Ram.
FYI, I have been though some of the other 04.5 Cummins/Ram episodes. 2 lift pumps before going to a Glacier pump; melted power wires at the steering column with loss of interior fan/blower motor (now on my third motor); on my third water pump; on my second serpentine tensioner; 2nd cooling fan clutch (fan cut the wires) headlight switch, etc.
The Cummins is great, it's the rest of the truck that is somewhat annoying! Although, for the most part, the engineering is more DIY friendly than any other truck I have ever owned!
12-08-2009, 09:19 AM
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Thanks for the feedback everyone, its appreciated! Kinda think I may not have provided enough info. This is and always has been, my ranch truck. It has been through plenty of slick pasture, mud, snow, sand and of course highway trailer towing. I have put every single mile on this truck, all 150K worth, and this isn't a normal 4x operational function. I broke something somewhere, just truing to find it.
This level of binding has just recently developed. It first did this going into a very gradual turn on wet and muddy pasture grass under loss of traction at the rear; that's why I went to 4x. This is also under not much more than idle throttle, with stock Michelin tires. As you all know, not much traction goin on there! This binding is severe enough that it feels like something is going to break if I were to push it. This is not even close to being a tight turn event, or on a dry surface. That's why I changed out the worn u joints.
I am much more concerned that I could not even get the axle nut close to torqued with a 3/4 inch drive bar without the axle turning while the transfer case was in 4 high. Had to put a punch in the yoke to get the axle to stop slipping and the nut torqued. That indicates to me that there is abnormal "slippage" in the drivetrain somewhere? Unfortunately, I couldn't see if the front driveshaft was turning during this process. Must admit I know nothing about these front drivetrains on this generation Ram.
FYI, I have been though some of the other 04.5 Cummins/Ram episodes. 2 lift pumps before going to a Glacier pump; melted power wires at the steering column with loss of interior fan/blower motor (now on my third motor); on my third water pump; on my second serpentine tensioner; 2nd cooling fan clutch (fan cut the wires) headlight switch, etc.
The Cummins is great, it's the rest of the truck that is somewhat annoying! Although, for the most part, the engineering is more DIY friendly than any other truck I have ever owned!
This level of binding has just recently developed. It first did this going into a very gradual turn on wet and muddy pasture grass under loss of traction at the rear; that's why I went to 4x. This is also under not much more than idle throttle, with stock Michelin tires. As you all know, not much traction goin on there! This binding is severe enough that it feels like something is going to break if I were to push it. This is not even close to being a tight turn event, or on a dry surface. That's why I changed out the worn u joints.
I am much more concerned that I could not even get the axle nut close to torqued with a 3/4 inch drive bar without the axle turning while the transfer case was in 4 high. Had to put a punch in the yoke to get the axle to stop slipping and the nut torqued. That indicates to me that there is abnormal "slippage" in the drivetrain somewhere? Unfortunately, I couldn't see if the front driveshaft was turning during this process. Must admit I know nothing about these front drivetrains on this generation Ram.
FYI, I have been though some of the other 04.5 Cummins/Ram episodes. 2 lift pumps before going to a Glacier pump; melted power wires at the steering column with loss of interior fan/blower motor (now on my third motor); on my third water pump; on my second serpentine tensioner; 2nd cooling fan clutch (fan cut the wires) headlight switch, etc.
The Cummins is great, it's the rest of the truck that is somewhat annoying! Although, for the most part, the engineering is more DIY friendly than any other truck I have ever owned!
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12-08-2009, 03:00 PM
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Thanks for the feedback everyone, its appreciated! Kinda think I may not have provided enough info. This is and always has been, my ranch truck. It has been through plenty of slick pasture, mud, snow, sand and of course highway trailer towing. I have put every single mile on this truck, all 150K worth, and this isn't a normal 4x operational function. I broke something somewhere, just truing to find it.
This level of binding has just recently developed. It first did this going into a very gradual turn on wet and muddy pasture grass under loss of traction at the rear; that's why I went to 4x. This is also under not much more than idle throttle, with stock Michelin tires. As you all know, not much traction goin on there! This binding is severe enough that it feels like something is going to break if I were to push it. This is not even close to being a tight turn event, or on a dry surface. That's why I changed out the worn u joints.
I am much more concerned that I could not even get the axle nut close to torqued with a 3/4 inch drive bar without the axle turning while the transfer case was in 4 high. Had to put a punch in the yoke to get the axle to stop slipping and the nut torqued. That indicates to me that there is abnormal "slippage" in the drivetrain somewhere? Unfortunately, I couldn't see if the front driveshaft was turning during this process. Must admit I know nothing about these front drivetrains on this generation Ram.
FYI, I have been though some of the other 04.5 Cummins/Ram episodes. 2 lift pumps before going to a Glacier pump; melted power wires at the steering column with loss of interior fan/blower motor (now on my third motor); on my third water pump; on my second serpentine tensioner; 2nd cooling fan clutch (fan cut the wires) headlight switch, etc.
The Cummins is great, it's the rest of the truck that is somewhat annoying! Although, for the most part, the engineering is more DIY friendly than any other truck I have ever owned!
This level of binding has just recently developed. It first did this going into a very gradual turn on wet and muddy pasture grass under loss of traction at the rear; that's why I went to 4x. This is also under not much more than idle throttle, with stock Michelin tires. As you all know, not much traction goin on there! This binding is severe enough that it feels like something is going to break if I were to push it. This is not even close to being a tight turn event, or on a dry surface. That's why I changed out the worn u joints.
I am much more concerned that I could not even get the axle nut close to torqued with a 3/4 inch drive bar without the axle turning while the transfer case was in 4 high. Had to put a punch in the yoke to get the axle to stop slipping and the nut torqued. That indicates to me that there is abnormal "slippage" in the drivetrain somewhere? Unfortunately, I couldn't see if the front driveshaft was turning during this process. Must admit I know nothing about these front drivetrains on this generation Ram.
FYI, I have been though some of the other 04.5 Cummins/Ram episodes. 2 lift pumps before going to a Glacier pump; melted power wires at the steering column with loss of interior fan/blower motor (now on my third motor); on my third water pump; on my second serpentine tensioner; 2nd cooling fan clutch (fan cut the wires) headlight switch, etc.
The Cummins is great, it's the rest of the truck that is somewhat annoying! Although, for the most part, the engineering is more DIY friendly than any other truck I have ever owned!
Like "AirGrabber" said - pull the front axle coverpan off to verify there's no issue there. Pull the front propshaft and check it out (the angles on these trucks is way out of acceptable range so they dont last all that long).
If thats OK or is fixed and the issue doesnt go away I think your t-case is next stop.
Also, I wouldnt us put anything between the u-joint ears of these shafts and the yokes on the tubes. Anywhere but the ears (thin areas around u-joints)...
12-08-2009, 08:03 PM
#9
If it does not do that you are in trouble.All good 4x4 does that if you are Turing hard.Take it out and check it in 2 wheel drive to see if it makes any noise!!! Then go 4x4 straight if no noise you are OK then turn hard it should jump and be hard to turn. GOOD LUCK.
12-19-2009, 12:38 PM
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Update - binding and snapping in 4wheel drive.
I think I found and fixed my problem(s). As it turns out I had 2 issues with the drivetrain, but at 150k miles I feel pretty fortunate it wasn't worse. I pulled my front diff. cover and the oil was clean, no metal. Couldn't see anything worn or broken. Buttoned it up and put in new oil. crawled under the truck and spent a lot of time checking out the front driveline. Couldn't find any slack or signs of wear. Since those were the only ujoints that had never been replaced I decided to have it rebuilt. Couldn't get it in to the driveline shop for a few days so I kept looking for other problems.
I pulled the rear tailshaft housing and checked to make sure the C clip was still intact. All good there. No metal in the fluid. Put in new fluid.
Had the front driveshaft torn down and the cardan joint was wasted. Had the shaft rebuilt and balanced and put it back in. No more snapping and binding in 4x turns! Unfortunately, still had slipping in the drivetrain under very light 4x load, even on very slick ice. The ratcheting sound (can't think of a better description) led me to believe the TC drive chain was slipping. Hunted for a new chain for a week and finally found a Morse HV064 chain. Couldn't get my hands on any other parts so I had to take a shot at tearing the case (NV271 manual shift) down to have a look inside.
Really couldn't see any wear in the chain or tell it had been slipping but put the new one in anyway. Stuffed it back in the truck and no more noise in 4x, even under load. I plan to find a rebuild kit (bearings, seals, etc.) and go through it properly when time allows. Didn't want to put it back in the truck w/o new parts but I didn't have them and have to haul a load of horses to western WA today. Wasn't going to do that w/o 4x this time of year! Got lucky this time but keeping my fingers crossed until I get the TC rebuilt. Would love to let it sit in the shop instead but that's just not an option this time!
I think I found and fixed my problem(s). As it turns out I had 2 issues with the drivetrain, but at 150k miles I feel pretty fortunate it wasn't worse. I pulled my front diff. cover and the oil was clean, no metal. Couldn't see anything worn or broken. Buttoned it up and put in new oil. crawled under the truck and spent a lot of time checking out the front driveline. Couldn't find any slack or signs of wear. Since those were the only ujoints that had never been replaced I decided to have it rebuilt. Couldn't get it in to the driveline shop for a few days so I kept looking for other problems.
I pulled the rear tailshaft housing and checked to make sure the C clip was still intact. All good there. No metal in the fluid. Put in new fluid.
Had the front driveshaft torn down and the cardan joint was wasted. Had the shaft rebuilt and balanced and put it back in. No more snapping and binding in 4x turns! Unfortunately, still had slipping in the drivetrain under very light 4x load, even on very slick ice. The ratcheting sound (can't think of a better description) led me to believe the TC drive chain was slipping. Hunted for a new chain for a week and finally found a Morse HV064 chain. Couldn't get my hands on any other parts so I had to take a shot at tearing the case (NV271 manual shift) down to have a look inside.
Really couldn't see any wear in the chain or tell it had been slipping but put the new one in anyway. Stuffed it back in the truck and no more noise in 4x, even under load. I plan to find a rebuild kit (bearings, seals, etc.) and go through it properly when time allows. Didn't want to put it back in the truck w/o new parts but I didn't have them and have to haul a load of horses to western WA today. Wasn't going to do that w/o 4x this time of year! Got lucky this time but keeping my fingers crossed until I get the TC rebuilt. Would love to let it sit in the shop instead but that's just not an option this time!
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