So, I have a 2004 dodge ram 3500 with a 2005 5.9l1 motor in it... Anyone see the problem here? Yep you guessed it, fuel lift pump deleted. Whoever installed the 05 motor failed to add a lift pump

So this has been running this way fine for more then 50k, and I didn't worry about it. because the duramax has run without a lift pump.

Now... Problems

It was acting like it was starving for fuel it would run horrible some times, die, idle fine for a bit maybe. wouldn't start three times then will start and idle fine. it would drive fine for a bit then really start sounding real loud dieseling (like my dads old ,92 cummins) then it might die, or resolve itself and be good for a couple hundred yards.

This went on for about two miles. enough time to get it to my shop.

BTW I changed the fuel filter right away, two day ago to remove that from the equation.

So, today I both confirmed there was no lift pump, as well as added an aftermarket one on the frame rail in front of the filter canister. An airtex diesel pump rated at 10-15 psi output.

This didn't do anything for the problem, if anything it is getting very much worse. Now it won't run at all

I know this is a very generic non-descriptive problem something along the lines of "my truck is broke? What is wrong with it" kinda thread. for that I apologize. So I think I will ask some more specific questions. The kind that a short answer will suffice

Has anyone had a C3P common rail injection pump go out? How did it fail? Can it send metal through the system? I got a very very small amount in the bottom of the filter. (a few tiny pin-tip sized flakes)

Is there a simple way to diagnose The Injection pump?

Thanks

 

Do you have a rail pressure guage? Or a way to read it from a Scan tool?

That will be the best way. Otherwise you could pull the two prong connector from the FCA at the back of the CP3. That will give you full demand for rail pressure.

I would also look at the bolt on top of the rail pressure relief valve to see if that popped. Pull the fitting and crank it. If you see fuel you know that is bad and could cause that issue.

But being that it has been ran 50K without a lift pump, I have a feeling that the pump is bad. Yes it can send metal into the injectors. The only way to know for sure is to pull the injectors & have them examined.

If there is metal in the injectors you will need to replace everything from the CP3 thru the injector & possibly the return side as well.

Since your finding small metal bits in the bottom of the stock filter housing, then it came from the tank. I'm guessing its making it way from the CP3.

Wish you the best of luck, but its not sounding good at first read.

Sorry bud.

 

What is the most inexpensive way to read rail pressure. Also, the pressure relief... Is that under the banjo bolt on the 2" tower looking thing on top of the fuel rail? If so, I did this and fuel is coming out of this in rather copius amounts. I assumed It was just supposed to go into the return system.

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it

 

Also, how should I shop for a new cp3? What do I look for?

 

Was the truck an 04 or 04.5?

 

I'm no professional mechanic but some of the things you've listed just don't seem right.

'04 with '05 engine
No lift pump on engine firewall
Ran for 50K like this

First many questions need to be answered here. Like did they swap out the ECM (computer) with the '05 engine? An '04 engine has different ratings than an '05, different injector timing events, different turbo, different valve seats, and a few other items that I can't remember off the top of my head. Look up the rating differences between the two (accurately 3) different model years.

Second, '05 trucks don't have a lift pump mounted on the firewall like the '04-'03's had. They have an in tank lift pump.

Third, the CP3 can not pull fuel from the tank like the V44 could. Just can't and surely not for 50,000 miles. When a lift pump die's on a CP3 truck it quiets. Sure it might run weak until the fuel filter bowl is emptied, but once it's emptied you're done! So, if you checked/changed your fuel filter and there was fuel in the bowl that drained out of the purge valve, then you've got a lift pump!

 

I agree completely on the 05 in an 04, if the truck was an early 04 there could be issues with the OE ECM, but an 04.5 will be fine as they are the same as the 05's. The only rating difference was tq to beat the dmax 605 that was released, but all the hard parts are the same.

You have the two pumps backwords, the VP44 cannot suck fuel the CP3 can. The CP3 is actually designed to suck fuel, and the duramax has a CP3 and no LP from the factory, so there shouldn't be any issues with that. Most trucks die when the LP fails as the engine mounted LP didn't allow fuel to be sucked thru it in a failure, the in-tank does (under most failures) and the engine will still run just fine.

 

Hi everyone and thanks a lot for the help.

First off this truck has been a bit of a mystery to me as well.

It is an early '04 though I do not know the cut-off date for when it becomes a '04.5

The engine was built 11/04 which too me makes it an '05, thus my conclusion about the year.

I found out this a year ago right after I bought it and I took it to the dodge dealer to diagnose a ABS light that was on from when I bought it. Dealer told me that the VIN of the engine did not match the vehicle VIN, and that was why the ABS light was on. They said that it couldn't be fixed without replacing the ecm as there were no re-programs left in it. I was the one that finally realized that my engine was built after the truck was. This by simply reading the build date on the Cummins and then the light going on in my brain. So I do not think the ECM was swapped or the ABS would not have been a issue. Plus After I discovered the engine being newer I called Dodge and asked them if the truck has had a new engine installed under warranty they said no.

Ditto to AH64 on the CP3 lift pump issue. Basically an '05 motor in an '04 truck cancels out the lift pump unless someone really thinks to deal with the issue. And I have double confirmed this with the filter canister. The mounting holes on the back of it are there, but not threaded.

As for the different ECMs' being as the ECM's are mounted on the engine, and not the firewall, most likely the '05 engine has it's original ECM on it, and this seems to be confirmed by the VIN conflict with the ABS computer.

As for the ability to answer questions I have no way of going to the previous owner, as I bought it from a dealer out of state.

Thanks again

 

I just went through a similar situation with a customer that installed a 05 motor in a 06 truck.(not my project, thankfully). He bought a theft recovery 06 with no motor, and bought a wrecked 05 to pull the motor. Swap was mechanicaly fairly easy, and most things plugged right in. But NO ability to run a fuel pump, computer had different protocol or operating software.
Long story short, he ended up swaping everything(and I do mean everything) from the 05, and still had to make several trips to the dealer parts desk.
He just called last week to tell me it is running now(10 months and 10 grand later).
Your problem sounds a little simpler, especialy if you already have the dealer update in-tank lift pump that perhaps went bad? My 04.5 had pump on motor, my fathers 04.5 was already changed to in-tank.

 

MisterJP, I'm assuming that it was running before... correct?

Since you said that you had fuel coming out of the top of the pressure releaf valve, I would assume that it is blown and would need to be replaced. I would try capping it with a plug (purchase either on-line or at a hardware store). If you put the plug in & she starts, I would replace the pressure releaf valve.

That's where I would start.

Then get a liftpump and filters.

 

You need to determine if the ECM from the truck is an 04 or 04.5, and what ECM is on the 05 motor. My 05 motor was built 10/04 so your 11/04 is for sure a 05 motor.

If the ECM is a 04 ECM then you have probably done piston damage as the piston bowl/injector angle of the 05 motor is different than early 04, as is the injection timing associated with it.

Sounds like the truck needs to spend some time at Dodge to get the kinks worked out.

 

Once again thanks to everyone for the input.

Brokentoy: I just added a rail mount lift pump, and verified the lack of an in-tank pump, through a lack of wiring, as well as the new frame rail mounted lift pump having no problem pumping fuel. I don't think a dealer did anything on this truck. I think it was a shade tree swap at worse, and an incompetent shop at best that swapped the engine.

Tesla440: Your assumption of the running is correct. This is a problem that came on suddenly. Ran good all day, month, year, went out to start it Friday, ran to warm it up came back outside and it was dead. Ran horrible at best after that. Like I said just enough to get it to my shop. dying 2-3 times in the 1 mile trip at a stop sign. And I should correct my previous assumption. I assumed fuel was coming out the pressure relief, but I failed to take into consideration return line fuel coming up and going through the banjo bolt backwards. I do like the suggestion of a plug though I think I will try it.


Ah64ID: I absolutlely agree with you on all of your suggestions, The problem is finding a competent dodge dealer. My local one could not even figure out why my ECM VIN didn't match my vehicle VIN. I had too do that, and the cummins engine data label isn't exactly hard to see. They literally took my money and simply said ... "you need a new ECM to fix this ABS light give us all your money and we can get you one, Program it and it will be fixed. NO INVESTIGATION WHATSOEVER!!!!
So as it stands I have an appointment for them to put their Starscan on it Friday, and I will tell them what I need to know if they come back with any dumb "y'up it's broke" answers....

Once again Thanks You all for the time and effort put into this situation. It is strange I know. So I guess I have one final question for everyone.
What do I need to find out specifically from the Dodge Dealer as far as Injection pump, rail pressure, Specifics that will determine which parts need replacing, as I will probably do this myself? Can they check individual injectors? Thanks

 

Its hard to say on the parts, I would probably find a good local shop, not Dodge, to do the work. I know there are some good shops in Spokane.

Also, I just had a thought, look on the turbo and see if the command valve is there, and if it its, if its plugged in. This can tell you if its an 04 or 04.5 wiring harness.

 

I will look for that. Thanks.

 

OK, so the truck is now sitting in my shop as no one will touch a 2004 truck with a 2005 motor in it.

The Dodge dealer said I have a VIN number conflict and want to put a 2000 doller ecm in it just to get into it.

so, its back to my shop and diagnostic abilities without the capability of a DRBIII.

I have narrowed it (I think) down to the Fuel Rail Pressure sender being bad. Does anyone know the resistance values or a quick test procedure for the fuel pressure sender?

One of the reasons I am thinking this is that it runs too even to be an individual cylinder, and It just sounds like it is at full rail pressure. Extremely loud at idle.

But the one thing that confuses me is when I unplug the FCA and start it, it sounds exactly the same. Does the FCA default to wide open when no signal is applied?

Ideas?

I really appreciate any and all help as this truck is my business, and it's down


Thanks