2003 steering swaps lanes on its own & wander
05-07-2009 | 10:45 PM
#17
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 371
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From: Mississippi Gulf Coast
I had Greasable Moog Ball joints put in and they were so tight the wheels wouldn't recenter after making a turn... The truck drove all over the place. Turn the wheel left and it would stay left & vice-versa...
Removed Moog joints and put in Chrysler and fixed problem! I really wanted greasable ball joints, but drivability and safetly come first...
Removed Moog joints and put in Chrysler and fixed problem! I really wanted greasable ball joints, but drivability and safetly come first...
05-09-2009 | 12:07 AM
#19
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Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Langley, BC
[QUOTE=mmurray;2474179]I had Greasable Moog Ball joints put in and they were so tight the wheels wouldn't recenter after making a turn... The truck drove all over the place. Turn the wheel left and it would stay left & vice-versa...
Ok so a few of us have this exact same problem including myself. Had all four ball joints changed to greaseable units and now it sucks to drive espcially with a trailer. Any other thoughts on how to get rid of this without having to go through the pain of buying and installing new joints?
Ok so a few of us have this exact same problem including myself. Had all four ball joints changed to greaseable units and now it sucks to drive espcially with a trailer. Any other thoughts on how to get rid of this without having to go through the pain of buying and installing new joints?
05-11-2009 | 09:38 AM
#20
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From: Used to be missoula, montana: Now in Sonoma County California
I am going to talk the balljoints over with the guys at the alignment shop but i am pretty sure they've probably checked em to be sure they are freely traveling
They know their stuff, are a great bunch of guys to have do work and they have gone Way beyond what they needed to do to help try and diagnose this issue.
if it turns out that the moogs are the culprit then I am going to be thinking long and hard about just living with non greasable stockers and doing them every 60K-70k vs dealing with this crap.
Sequence of events
1. 70-80k milestruck develops poor steering, wander and visably the top ball joints have developed play with no load on truck (up on jack stands).
2. 90k miles Ball joints replaced. steering is tight and slow to return to center. not a-typical of new ball joints. Wheel bearings re-packed and adjusted by alignment shop. 1 tie rod end at pitman arm is replaced. full alignment done. by the alignment shop here in town checked the panhard bar bushings and confirmed they are still tight.
3. steering still loose more jumpy prone to following ruts and not returning to center, still slopy suspected tie rod ends at knuckles bought whole dodge tierod replacement setup from chrysler. full alignment done. dodge was out of steering stabilizers installed a Moog dodge steering stabilizer instead. brought up the tight steering at time of alignment, shop brough truck back in tried adding as much caster as they could. therorized with the shop that it probably was a combo of the balljoints breaking in, tires and potentially a steering box wearing in and needing adjustment.
4. steering still jerky/dart definately tighter but now handles like race car. still follows ruts and is hesitant to return to center after encountering a rut of bump on the road.
5. Friend provided me with a new chrysler steering box for an 03-08 dodge that he had never installed. Figured i could help him out by buying it from him and rule out another possibility fror the wandering steering. resulted in even tighter steering but did not resolve the darty driving characteristic. wheel bearings checked and re-torqued still within spec and tight. Folsom lake jeep chrysler checked alignment and steering in Sac and confirmed bad handling said alignment specs were good and everything was tight suspected tires were contributing to poor handling
6 installed a steering box stabilizer bracket as a preventitive measure to prolong steering box life since now had a new steering box
7. 10k miles later. Still darty, still very quick to follow ruts and bumps requires steering correction to re-center truck after encountering something. It has been suggested by several people who have driven or aligned the truck that worn out oversized tires might be causing some of the dartiness. Suggested that i return to an E rated narrow close to stock height tire. I was going to run 285/75R17's next time around and my BFG's int he rear both had blown belts and were virtually bald so i invested in new tires. Nitto Terragrapplers. an AT. Steering becomes even more pronounced. extremely responsive to any change in road conditions like driving a honda CRX with Rack and pinion steering & skinny slicks on I80 over Donner summit. put a penny in the road and the thing will jerk left then you'll have to pull it back to the right then it will wander a little with you manually having to center it all the time..... best way a friend who drove and described it was Very darty.
8. same time as the tires. Chrysler does the recall of the tie-rod setup that i had purchased due to tie rod ends shearing off. purchased new tie rod setup. Had alignment shop do installation and full alignment brought up steering issue, they increased caster to try and help. Back to my home town alignment shop and they were able to duplicate the steering issue. re-confirmed that panhard bar bushings are still have no play.
9. Steering shop determined that the replacement steering box was too tight from the factory. they loosened it 1-1/4 turns made a difference truck handled a little better but still the steering was darty and follows road conditions without returning to center easily.
10. I removed steering box brace and the 03-08 replacement steering box. re-installed the original 03 steering box. left the moog steering stabilizer on the truck. steering still darty So all that is new or has been changed are the tie-rod/drag link, tires are new and ball joints are new (well aproaching 10k miles). nothing else in the front end has changed. caster at 3* on left and 3.5* on right. truck still handles horribly on highways ect empty is bad once the trailer is on there its even scarier
11. swapped my friends 05 dodge newer stock size tires and wheels onto my truck no difference in handling, the dartiness was actually more pronounced. Ran my tires on his truck no issues. his truck has 78k miles and handled just like my truck used to. firm and returned to center easily no wander no darting back and forth. Did a front end brake job on my truck.
Poor guys at the alignment shop i've got em just fit to be tied and i hate it because i know its cutting into shop time, and thats not what independant shops need. So any info i can bring or check within my ability i will do to help trace this problem down and figure it out.
They know their stuff, are a great bunch of guys to have do work and they have gone Way beyond what they needed to do to help try and diagnose this issue.
if it turns out that the moogs are the culprit then I am going to be thinking long and hard about just living with non greasable stockers and doing them every 60K-70k vs dealing with this crap.
Sequence of events
1. 70-80k milestruck develops poor steering, wander and visably the top ball joints have developed play with no load on truck (up on jack stands).
2. 90k miles Ball joints replaced. steering is tight and slow to return to center. not a-typical of new ball joints. Wheel bearings re-packed and adjusted by alignment shop. 1 tie rod end at pitman arm is replaced. full alignment done. by the alignment shop here in town checked the panhard bar bushings and confirmed they are still tight.
3. steering still loose more jumpy prone to following ruts and not returning to center, still slopy suspected tie rod ends at knuckles bought whole dodge tierod replacement setup from chrysler. full alignment done. dodge was out of steering stabilizers installed a Moog dodge steering stabilizer instead. brought up the tight steering at time of alignment, shop brough truck back in tried adding as much caster as they could. therorized with the shop that it probably was a combo of the balljoints breaking in, tires and potentially a steering box wearing in and needing adjustment.
4. steering still jerky/dart definately tighter but now handles like race car. still follows ruts and is hesitant to return to center after encountering a rut of bump on the road.
5. Friend provided me with a new chrysler steering box for an 03-08 dodge that he had never installed. Figured i could help him out by buying it from him and rule out another possibility fror the wandering steering. resulted in even tighter steering but did not resolve the darty driving characteristic. wheel bearings checked and re-torqued still within spec and tight. Folsom lake jeep chrysler checked alignment and steering in Sac and confirmed bad handling said alignment specs were good and everything was tight suspected tires were contributing to poor handling
6 installed a steering box stabilizer bracket as a preventitive measure to prolong steering box life since now had a new steering box
7. 10k miles later. Still darty, still very quick to follow ruts and bumps requires steering correction to re-center truck after encountering something. It has been suggested by several people who have driven or aligned the truck that worn out oversized tires might be causing some of the dartiness. Suggested that i return to an E rated narrow close to stock height tire. I was going to run 285/75R17's next time around and my BFG's int he rear both had blown belts and were virtually bald so i invested in new tires. Nitto Terragrapplers. an AT. Steering becomes even more pronounced. extremely responsive to any change in road conditions like driving a honda CRX with Rack and pinion steering & skinny slicks on I80 over Donner summit. put a penny in the road and the thing will jerk left then you'll have to pull it back to the right then it will wander a little with you manually having to center it all the time..... best way a friend who drove and described it was Very darty.
8. same time as the tires. Chrysler does the recall of the tie-rod setup that i had purchased due to tie rod ends shearing off. purchased new tie rod setup. Had alignment shop do installation and full alignment brought up steering issue, they increased caster to try and help. Back to my home town alignment shop and they were able to duplicate the steering issue. re-confirmed that panhard bar bushings are still have no play.
9. Steering shop determined that the replacement steering box was too tight from the factory. they loosened it 1-1/4 turns made a difference truck handled a little better but still the steering was darty and follows road conditions without returning to center easily.
10. I removed steering box brace and the 03-08 replacement steering box. re-installed the original 03 steering box. left the moog steering stabilizer on the truck. steering still darty So all that is new or has been changed are the tie-rod/drag link, tires are new and ball joints are new (well aproaching 10k miles). nothing else in the front end has changed. caster at 3* on left and 3.5* on right. truck still handles horribly on highways ect empty is bad once the trailer is on there its even scarier
11. swapped my friends 05 dodge newer stock size tires and wheels onto my truck no difference in handling, the dartiness was actually more pronounced. Ran my tires on his truck no issues. his truck has 78k miles and handled just like my truck used to. firm and returned to center easily no wander no darting back and forth. Did a front end brake job on my truck.
Poor guys at the alignment shop i've got em just fit to be tied and i hate it because i know its cutting into shop time, and thats not what independant shops need. So any info i can bring or check within my ability i will do to help trace this problem down and figure it out.
05-12-2009 | 12:37 PM
#21
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From: Used to be missoula, montana: Now in Sonoma County California
Any other ideas? 
the shop did confirm that they had the truck up on the rack with the tie rod off and the knuckles turned freely. didnt appear to be any resistance.
Sucks having a truck go from handling like a dream or handling like my chevy 3/4 tons at work do to having such dicey handling that you are really getting a workout even driving it 5 miles. its been 6 or 8 months of this actually about 2 months more than that since it was last june/July i think when the truck started wandering and teh balljoints got bad. Since then taking the truck out of town isn't an option my wife wont even drive it, where as before this she always wanted to tak it because it got the best mileage and it handled so much better than her old Jeep Gand Cherokee (
)and was comparible to her current chevy tahoe.
the shop did confirm that they had the truck up on the rack with the tie rod off and the knuckles turned freely. didnt appear to be any resistance.
Sucks having a truck go from handling like a dream or handling like my chevy 3/4 tons at work do to having such dicey handling that you are really getting a workout even driving it 5 miles. its been 6 or 8 months of this actually about 2 months more than that since it was last june/July i think when the truck started wandering and teh balljoints got bad. Since then taking the truck out of town isn't an option my wife wont even drive it, where as before this she always wanted to tak it because it got the best mileage and it handled so much better than her old Jeep Gand Cherokee (
)and was comparible to her current chevy tahoe.
05-12-2009 | 08:44 PM
#23
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,409
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From: Colorado Springs, CO
Sounds like you've covered pretty much all the bases.
One issue not discussed is power steering assist. The pump should have a pressure control valve in the outlet port. If pressure is too high it will be darty and jumpy. I believe there's a test procedure that a dealership should be able to perform.
How's the upper steering shaft?
Alignment specs are a common cause of this too. 3* of caster would be minimum. From everything I'v read, you should be closer to 5*. Camber and toe are easily as critical, if not more so. Make sure they're right on factory specs, and equal each side.
If it were my truck, and all the above was within spec, I would take the entire front end apart piece by piece until I found something.
One issue not discussed is power steering assist. The pump should have a pressure control valve in the outlet port. If pressure is too high it will be darty and jumpy. I believe there's a test procedure that a dealership should be able to perform.
How's the upper steering shaft?
Alignment specs are a common cause of this too. 3* of caster would be minimum. From everything I'v read, you should be closer to 5*. Camber and toe are easily as critical, if not more so. Make sure they're right on factory specs, and equal each side.
If it were my truck, and all the above was within spec, I would take the entire front end apart piece by piece until I found something.
05-13-2009 | 08:59 AM
#25
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,198
Likes: 2
From: Used to be missoula, montana: Now in Sonoma County California
Sounds like you've covered pretty much all the bases.
One issue not discussed is power steering assist. The pump should have a pressure control valve in the outlet port. If pressure is too high it will be darty and jumpy. I believe there's a test procedure that a dealership should be able to perform.
How's the upper steering shaft?
Alignment specs are a common cause of this too. 3* of caster would be minimum. From everything I'v read, you should be closer to 5*. Camber and toe are easily as critical, if not more so. Make sure they're right on factory specs, and equal each side.
If it were my truck, and all the above was within spec, I would take the entire front end apart piece by piece until I found something.
One issue not discussed is power steering assist. The pump should have a pressure control valve in the outlet port. If pressure is too high it will be darty and jumpy. I believe there's a test procedure that a dealership should be able to perform.
How's the upper steering shaft?
Alignment specs are a common cause of this too. 3* of caster would be minimum. From everything I'v read, you should be closer to 5*. Camber and toe are easily as critical, if not more so. Make sure they're right on factory specs, and equal each side.
If it were my truck, and all the above was within spec, I would take the entire front end apart piece by piece until I found something.
upper steering shaft is tight
you dont have any links for the proceedure or part numbers for the PS valve you speak of do you?
thank you for the suggestion i'll dig into it
couple more symptoms:
at high speeds 70 mph+ the truck will develop a sway or wander that is down right scary. it is almost like a 4 wheel drift left and right that you have to keep correcting. its probably jsut an amplification of what i am already experiencing.
Also after the new ball joints or right around maybe before the ball joints it developed an ever so slight bump steer effect on the highway.
tried running the truck up on the open road and then shutting off the power and coasting in neutral. truck still shifts left and right though it is a little slower to happen so i was able to try and get a better description. it is quick to transmit up throught he steering wheel whenever the truck hits a bump and compresses and that effect is usually followed by a small bump steer &/or the pull left or rightSo now this is seeming like a axle housing shift? but if the panhard were loose then i would be experiencing shudder, shimmy or DW. So that rules that out.
We are past the tires shoot they have 4500 miles of towing. if they havent burned off the coating i don't think they will.
Steering box is pretty much a ruled out since the old box and the new box both experience the same symptoms.
what is baffling is that small bump steer I know all vehicles experience a little bump and wiggle of the steering wheel but this is pronounced. And so far can't be attributed to anything visable
05-13-2009 | 04:33 PM
#26
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Used to be missoula, montana: Now in Sonoma County California
This thread describes alot of what my truck is experiencing?
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...p+steer&page=2
thread about caster and bump steer
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ght=bump+steer
More on what guys are doing for caster correction & alignment specs ect
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ght=bump+steer
figured i would link these up to this thread
anybody tried these? if it ends up being a pan hard drag link issue.
http://www.sourceautomotive.biz/inde...hk=1&Itemid=45
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...p+steer&page=2
thread about caster and bump steer
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ght=bump+steer
More on what guys are doing for caster correction & alignment specs ect
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ght=bump+steer
figured i would link these up to this thread
anybody tried these? if it ends up being a pan hard drag link issue.
http://www.sourceautomotive.biz/inde...hk=1&Itemid=45
05-13-2009 | 06:28 PM
#29
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From: Used to be missoula, montana: Now in Sonoma County California
