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How I spent my Monday at Cummins...

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Old 08-09-2004 | 09:36 PM
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Post How I spent my Monday at Cummins...

Hi CTD'ers!

Here's how I spent my Monday [8-9-04]: aka a follow up to my VP44 odyssey (SEE PREVIOUS POSTS)

- Got up and called AAA to dispatch a flat bed hauler.

- Rushed like a demon to get ready for any potential needs while waiting for Cummins service [food/drinks, sweat band, towel, cell phone, etc]

- Assisted the guy in winching my truck onto the hauler.

- Arrived at Cummins and hunted for someone to talk to.

- Waited outside next to my truck for almost two hours [man, it was a hot one today!]

- Explained the FASS system to 3 tech's

- Watched the Cummins tech plumb up a fitting between my input elbow [which came with the FASS] and the VP44: directly on the VP44 inlet port.

- Stared IN DISBELIEF as he showed me a pressure reading of just over 8 pounds.

- Talked the "Lead Tech" into performing more testing on the VP44 [after he told me he was going to replace it for me]

- Watched the "pressure test tech" hook up and electronic gadget to my VP44's top electrical connector and my battery--something he called a "VP44 bypass box." [Cummins Part #3163834]

- Heated the you know what out of my starter [and batteries] as the tech cracked injector lines, while I turned the key and held it on for what seemed like forever.

- Grimaced as the engine never started

- Watched the tech fumble around with a laptop and some connectors for about 45 minutes, which never rendered any information. QUOTE: "It never talked to the ECM..."

- Waited next to my truck for a while until the lead tech returned from a test drive.

- Listened to Lead Tech while he told me was ready to go home and that he would "call [me] with an estimate tomorrow."

- Tried to nail down the lead tech on what I owed them so far [about 2.5 hours at $85 per]

- Rode home in silence while I pondered what had just happened....


Well, that's just about it. Half a day and 2.5 hours of Cummins labor charges to see a low pressure reading [they say 10 pounds minimum]. I mentioned the VP44 timing test to the lead tech, which garnered the response: "I'll stake my reputation on a bad VP44."

Anyway, whaddayathink? Is it reasonable to pay the guy for the extra 45 minutes he spent on the fruitless laptop test? I'm thinking that I shouldn't have to pay for work that didn't result in anything. In short, it's not my responsibility to keep the tools working, is it?

Once again, I have no doubt that the VP44 is bad. I was just hoping for some kind of convincing/conclusive diagnostic testing before I bought one--as had been wisely suggested to me by a well-respected poster.

Well...if Cummins isn't impressive, what do you do? Tow it to Dodge? I'm not too sure about that...

I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have on this. Anything authoritative would be great for my esteem right now ;>)

Have a great evening,
Bill [Ram44maR]
Old 08-09-2004 | 09:54 PM
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From: upper michigan
i would say stay out of their hair. let them run what tests they feel are necessary and receive an estimate of repairs and go from there. standing on top of the tech and making notes of everything they do wont win any points in that shop. i know some places when the customer insists on looking over the techs shoulder the tech will purposely drag his heals.
Old 08-09-2004 | 10:32 PM
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A tech I talked to at a Cummins shop disliked having the Dodge pickups come in as they don't have the diag equip to hook up to them like we do. That is what they probably were trying to do with the laptop. DC has the ECM eliminator box you were describing too. It will allow the truck two idle rpm positions and will verify that the pump is working and you had better look at wiring or the ECM itself. Being your truck would't start stock or with the ecm eliminator, and they bled it and still couldn't get it to start I'd just call them in the am and have them put that VP44 on. Not sure on your FASS system, but they have us test volume output rather than pressure. You should get 1.3 liters in the 20 sec time the lift pump runs when you bump the starter. I measure off the line from the filter (not the schrader valve). Of course I've seen bad VP's pretty much pass fuel through them and the psi would come up after it was replaced. That is where the fuel volume test comes in as it measures all the fuel and takes the VP out of the loop. It will all be over soon! (I diag'ed 3 bad VP's today, it was 120+ here and the heat brings out the worst in them).
Old 08-09-2004 | 10:53 PM
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From: Laredo, Tx, 7 hours south of Dallas
Could be a P1689. No Communications between injection pump and ecm... Pretty much means the brains are fried inside the VP44. I've had one VP44 go on me like that... Started with a hard start, then lopey idle, then random shutting off, then, C.E. Light...

Merrick
Old 08-09-2004 | 11:57 PM
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I am a Master Tech at the volvo dealer and I can say from first hand ex.that it really sucks to have the owner lording over me as I perform test on thier car.I am absolutely convinced that if the owner is not watching i can find the concern much faster than if they "keep an eye on the mechaninc" as if we need a friken baby sitter.trust me when i say that hurting,scratching,or denting your truck is the last thing that they want to do . Some of the tests that i know will really concern the non educated on the subject of vehicle diagnosis,so if they are watching I try to do the more "pleasent " to wittness tests,which in turn takes much longer to narrow down the problem.what i recommend is to drop off your truck and tell them to call you when they have some answers and suggestions. trust me,ITS REALLY THE BEST WAY SO THERE IS NO PRESSURE on the tech and the repair is thourgh.



p.s. I SOME TIMES GET THE GUY WHO HAS HEARD OF A TEST ON SOME WEB SITE THAT TURNS OUT to be a crock... sorry. just let the trained do there job.
Old 08-10-2004 | 12:05 AM
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From: NOLA
Hello out there,

I take it some of you weren't too impressed with my message--sorry about that.

If you read the beginning of the message, you'll see that 3 tech's didn't know what was going on with the FASS. What would you think if you were in my shoes?

As I was raised on a farm, I know NOT to stare over anyone's shoulder while they repair equipment--I would probably strangle someone for that.

No, I was advised by a Cummins tech I know--in another state, unfortunately--to stay with the truck and to ask questions when the guys were finished. I'm not sure why, but after explaining the FASS design, the two techs that actually touched the truck asked me to come over and to assist them with operating the key, explaining my mod's, etc. It was not the other way around.

If you read on, the "Lead Tech" was ready to replace my VP44 after getting a low-pressure reading--this is NOT why I went through the trouble of towing my truck to them. I went there because I was told by my tech friend that Cummins had a piece of equipment that electronically tested VP44 timing. That way, I could be SURE before spending the big dollars on the IP. That's why I stated that I talked him into further testing: I can do a pressure test in my garage, for Pete's sake.

Lastly, this is the New Orleans! Businesses here have a long, well-earned reputation for taking the nickname "The Big Easy" a little too seriously. Here, you better let 'em know you're paying attention--or else you'll end with a lot less cash in your savings account

Once again, I'm sorry if the message was received differently than I intended. I was mainly looking for an opinion from someone who knows how the Cummins tallies their labor, and how to approach them about the unsuccessful testing, etc.

I just thought I'd put it out there for everyone else in RAMland. Passing thorough information around is what these forums are all about

Have a great one,
Bill [Ram44maR]
Old 08-10-2004 | 01:47 AM
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What I see here , they did the press. test and found out that you have enough press. from the old way of testing , the new test is volume test now , that is the fourth different test now since the ISB came out , but they did have the press. and the flow they assume, but you wanted more proof that the pump was junk , well when you insisted they do the box test which was a waste of time now..... that added to your troubleshooting time , we normally charge hour and half to two hours for VP44 problems , but includes checking volume , restriction and air in fuel , it all can be checked even if the engine not running, as far as communication , we use inline II with insite , I have never had a problem communicating with any dodge up till now with the CR engine , could have been a problem on your end also , the dodge uses a 3 pins just like the truck engine uses. we have found some with 2pin weatherpak and also 3 pin weatherpak. in the back of the motor above the liftpump , I think they would have known there was a problem with the laptop from previous use and maybe there is a problem on your end , as far as the owner watching over my shoulder is not a problem for me , I usually put them to work doing what they had you doing , but there are guys that just cannot handle someone watching them work even from a safe distance. and they are good wrenches just cant handle people watching.
Old 08-10-2004 | 02:34 PM
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John,

I certainly have no problem paying for any and all EFFECTIVE testing--that's what they're in business to do. I do, however, have a problem with a guy bringing out a faulty electronic system and spending my $85 per to verify this. Taking care of their test equipment [just like their tools] is their responsibility. I don't think I should pay for their testing time on their own test equipment.

Once again, the guys actually called me over, so I don't think they were "freezing up" because I was nearby.

Thanks for the reply,
Bill
Old 08-10-2004 | 08:48 PM
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What I dont understand is , you had them do the test , they know they have fuel , and then you had them hook up the VP44 box and the engine did not run , so what more do you want , the pump is junk and you need a new one ? I would talk to them about the time spent on the troubleshooting and how you observe the laptop malfunctioning and ask to be charge the SRT time for the checks they did , I am sure they will oblige with that .
Old 08-10-2004 | 10:07 PM
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Hello again, John.

You're absolutely right [I think]. After being told that they were ready to do the $2465.00 VP44 installation--which was preceded by one fuel pressure reading--I asked them to attempt to electronically move the IP timing plate and read the results. THIS IS THE REASON I TOWED MY TRUCK THERE TO BEGIN WITH. As I wrote before, this is a test described to me by a friend that is a Cummins tech (in another state).

I asked for this test the very first time I talked to a member of the service department. Instead, I got a pressure test and a VP44 bypass test. I have no problem with this! I believe that both were legitimate tests! Yes, I'm disappointed in not getting the timing test, but, obviously, they weren't able to do so.

Please read paragraph one again if you don't understand the reasons I brought the truck there--there are 2465 of them.

I've never once doubted that the VP44 was bad--I was just ADVISED to take it to Cummins for the timing test by someone in the know. He didn't think I should order a pump unless everything else was ruled out [hard to argue with this].

My bad, I was just hoping that Cummins could give me something more definitive than what I could get with a pressure gauge and an OBDII scanner.

Anyway, the pump will be ordered tomorrow and the the work will proceed without further delay.

By the way, the service manager saw my side [earlier today] once I rationally explained the work that was actually done. He reduced the labor hours by 1.1 and all ended well :>) I guess he understood my point.

Like I wrote before, I have no problem paying for effective work--the bottom line of this post to begin with.

Thanks again for the reply,
Bill
Old 08-10-2004 | 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by Ram44maR
Hello again, John.

--I asked them to attempt to electronically move the IP timing plate and read the results. Bill
Ok I'll bite....what the heck is that test?!?
Old 08-11-2004 | 12:00 AM
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J Body , I am clueless also on the IP timing test he is talking about , first of all , we dont use the DRBII , we only use Insite for ISB , maybe he meant the box which we can run it on low idle and high idle , Bill , I am glad you did talk to them about your diagnostic time , the thing I see is that even thou you ask them to test it your way , I am thinking they should have told you that there are procedures that have to be followed and that the test you ask for doesn't exits . we get VP44 problems everyday and most of the time we feel like were wasting time even doing the troubleshooting steps and just want to put in for the pump , but we do every now and then get one that is sucking air or have a high restriction , and even high return restriction. which do eventually cause the IP to go out.
Old 08-11-2004 | 12:04 AM
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From: Fair Oaks CA
I firmly believe that anytime the IP is changed there should be a transfer pump in the kit with the IP . and anytime the transfer pump goes out , there should be a IP in the kit with the pump LOL , but I dont think customers would like that cost. I am sure if we go back and check every transfer pump we replace , the IP has been replaced within 6 months afterward.
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