Fuel system prime
08-29-2006, 08:42 PM
#16
Originally Posted by MtnYJ
I guess this is a moot point now, because the truck started, but I'd like some help so I know what not to do next time. Here's the deal. I changed the fuel filter today. I removed the filter, opened the drain valve, waited for it to empty then closed it, filled the canister with fresh diesel, put in the new filter, tightened the cap. That was the simple part. I then bumped the starter and let the LP run 4-5 times. When I cranked the truck it ran for a few seconds then quit. I then spent the next 2 hours cycling the LP trying to get it to fire. I tried pushing in the schrader valve at the banjo fitting where the fuel line goes into the IP, I also tried opening the drain again for a few seconds. What did I do wrong that it took so long to refire, and what is the proper way to bleed the line between the filter and IP. Any help or tips would be greatly appreciated! Thanks guys!
08-29-2006, 08:48 PM
#17
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From the 2001 Factory Service Manual
STANDARD PROCEDURE - AIR BLEED
A certain amount of air becomes trapped in the
fuel system when fuel system components on the
supply and/or high-pressure side are serviced or
replaced. Primary air bleeding is accomplished using
the electric fuel transfer (lift) pump. If the vehicle
has been allowed to run completely out of fuel, the
fuel injectors must also be bled as the fuel injection
pump is not self-bleeding (priming).
Servicing or replacing components on the fuel
return side will not require air bleeding.
WARNING: DO NOT BLEED AIR FROM THE FUEL
SYSTEM OF A HOT ENGINE.
(1) Loosen, but do not remove, banjo bolt (test port
fitting) holding low-pressure fuel supply line to side
of fuel injection pump (Fig. 2). Place a shop towel
around banjo fitting to catch excess fuel.
The fuel transfer (lift) pump is self-priming: When
the key is first turned on (without cranking engine),
the pump operates for approximately 2 seconds and
then shuts off. The pump will also operate for up to
25 seconds after the starter is quickly engaged, and
then disengaged without allowing the engine to start.
The pump shuts off immediately if the key is on and
the engine stops running.
(2) Turn key to CRANK position and quickly
release key to ON position before engine starts. This
will operate fuel transfer pump for approximately 25
seconds.
(3) If fuel is not present at fuel supply line after
25 seconds, turn key OFF. Repeat previous step until
fuel is exiting at fuel supply line.
(4) Tighten banjo bolt at fuel supply line to 24 N·m
(18 ft. lbs.) torque. Primary air bleeding is now completed.
(5) Attempt to start engine. If engine will not
start, proceed to following steps. If engine does
start, it may run erratically and be very noisy
for a few minutes. This is a normal condition.
(6) Continue to next step if:
² The vehicle fuel tank has been allowed to run
empty
² The fuel injection pump has been replaced
² High-pressure fuel lines have been replaced
² Vehicle has not been operated after an extended
period
CAUTION: Do not engage the starter motor for more
than 30 seconds at a time. Allow two minutes
between cranking intervals.
(7) Perform previous air bleeding procedure steps
using fuel transfer pump. Be sure fuel is present at
fuel supply line (Fig. 2) before proceeding.
(8) Crank the engine for 30 seconds at a time to
allow air trapped in the injection pump to vent out
the drain manifold.
WARNING: THE FUEL INJECTION PUMP SUPPLIES
EXTREMELY HIGH FUEL PRESSURE TO EACH INDIVIDUAL
INJECTOR THROUGH THE HIGH-PRESSURE
LINES. FUEL UNDER THIS AMOUNT OF
PRESSURE CAN PENETRATE THE SKIN AND
CAUSE PERSONAL INJURY. WEAR SAFETY GOGGLES
AND ADEQUATE PROTECTIVE CLOTHING
AND AVOID CONTACT WITH FUEL SPRAY WHEN
BLEEDING HIGH-PRESSURE FUEL LINES.
WARNING: ENGINE MAY START WHILE CRANKING
STARTER MOTOR.
Engine may start, may run erratically and be
very noisy for a few minutes. This is a normal
condition.
(9) Thoroughly clean area around injector fittings
where they join injector connector tubes.
(10) Bleed air by loosening high-pressure fuel line
fittings (Fig. 3) at cylinders number 3, 4 and 5.
(11) Continue bleeding injectors until engine runs
smoothly. It may take a few minutes for engine to
run smooth.
(12) Tighten fuel line(s) at injector(s) to 38 N·m
(28 ft. lbs.) torque
STANDARD PROCEDURE - AIR BLEED
A certain amount of air becomes trapped in the
fuel system when fuel system components on the
supply and/or high-pressure side are serviced or
replaced. Primary air bleeding is accomplished using
the electric fuel transfer (lift) pump. If the vehicle
has been allowed to run completely out of fuel, the
fuel injectors must also be bled as the fuel injection
pump is not self-bleeding (priming).
Servicing or replacing components on the fuel
return side will not require air bleeding.
WARNING: DO NOT BLEED AIR FROM THE FUEL
SYSTEM OF A HOT ENGINE.
(1) Loosen, but do not remove, banjo bolt (test port
fitting) holding low-pressure fuel supply line to side
of fuel injection pump (Fig. 2). Place a shop towel
around banjo fitting to catch excess fuel.
The fuel transfer (lift) pump is self-priming: When
the key is first turned on (without cranking engine),
the pump operates for approximately 2 seconds and
then shuts off. The pump will also operate for up to
25 seconds after the starter is quickly engaged, and
then disengaged without allowing the engine to start.
The pump shuts off immediately if the key is on and
the engine stops running.
(2) Turn key to CRANK position and quickly
release key to ON position before engine starts. This
will operate fuel transfer pump for approximately 25
seconds.
(3) If fuel is not present at fuel supply line after
25 seconds, turn key OFF. Repeat previous step until
fuel is exiting at fuel supply line.
(4) Tighten banjo bolt at fuel supply line to 24 N·m
(18 ft. lbs.) torque. Primary air bleeding is now completed.
(5) Attempt to start engine. If engine will not
start, proceed to following steps. If engine does
start, it may run erratically and be very noisy
for a few minutes. This is a normal condition.
(6) Continue to next step if:
² The vehicle fuel tank has been allowed to run
empty
² The fuel injection pump has been replaced
² High-pressure fuel lines have been replaced
² Vehicle has not been operated after an extended
period
CAUTION: Do not engage the starter motor for more
than 30 seconds at a time. Allow two minutes
between cranking intervals.
(7) Perform previous air bleeding procedure steps
using fuel transfer pump. Be sure fuel is present at
fuel supply line (Fig. 2) before proceeding.
(8) Crank the engine for 30 seconds at a time to
allow air trapped in the injection pump to vent out
the drain manifold.
WARNING: THE FUEL INJECTION PUMP SUPPLIES
EXTREMELY HIGH FUEL PRESSURE TO EACH INDIVIDUAL
INJECTOR THROUGH THE HIGH-PRESSURE
LINES. FUEL UNDER THIS AMOUNT OF
PRESSURE CAN PENETRATE THE SKIN AND
CAUSE PERSONAL INJURY. WEAR SAFETY GOGGLES
AND ADEQUATE PROTECTIVE CLOTHING
AND AVOID CONTACT WITH FUEL SPRAY WHEN
BLEEDING HIGH-PRESSURE FUEL LINES.
WARNING: ENGINE MAY START WHILE CRANKING
STARTER MOTOR.
Engine may start, may run erratically and be
very noisy for a few minutes. This is a normal
condition.
(9) Thoroughly clean area around injector fittings
where they join injector connector tubes.
(10) Bleed air by loosening high-pressure fuel line
fittings (Fig. 3) at cylinders number 3, 4 and 5.
(11) Continue bleeding injectors until engine runs
smoothly. It may take a few minutes for engine to
run smooth.
(12) Tighten fuel line(s) at injector(s) to 38 N·m
(28 ft. lbs.) torque
08-29-2006, 11:38 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by MtnYJ
I like the idea about loosening the brass screw, but as was just said, the 01's dont have that setup... Could we just leave the plastic cap loose enough to let air escape and close it before the mess gets to bad?
I just keep it cracked loose a bit, keep the socket/wrench on it...then bump the key. When diesel squirts out, tighten the lid. Never a problem until I found out I had a dead LP...LOL
08-30-2006, 10:58 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by jrs_dodge_diesel
Ether is a great way to damage your engine. Ether has a very low flash point and is very volatile and burns extremely fast. Combine that with a confined area (intake) and a detonation source (red hot grid heater) and you can very easily cause an explosion. The intake horn usually is blown off the engine when this happens. Ether is not something to tinker with on our Cummins'. If you do insist on using ether, do yourself and you engine a favor and disable the grid heater first.
Like I said, cycle the plugs or grid BEFORE you shoot ether into the intake. Flash point? Ether works better in a diesel engine than a gas engine..... Ether is absolutely fine to use on any diesel engine as long as the grid or plugs are cycled before any ether inters the intake. Pro diesel mechanics have been doing it forever, I even have equipment with ether buttons in the cab that auto inject it, and pro diesel mechanics that really know will continue to use it until the end of the diesel engine.
08-30-2006, 03:39 PM
#20
Administrator
Originally Posted by RJF
Blah blah blah Like I said, cycle the plugs or grid BEFORE you shoot ether into the intake. Flash point? Ether works better in a diesel engine than a gas engine..... Ether is absolutely fine to use on any diesel engine as long as the grid or plugs are cycled before any ether inters the intake. Pro diesel mechanics have been doing it forever, I even have equipment with ether buttons in the cab that auto inject it, and pro diesel mechanics that really know will continue to use it until the end of the diesel engine.
Like I said, cycle the plugs or grid BEFORE you shoot ether into the intake. Flash point? Ether works better in a diesel engine than a gas engine..... Ether is absolutely fine to use on any diesel engine as long as the grid or plugs are cycled before any ether inters the intake. Pro diesel mechanics have been doing it forever, I even have equipment with ether buttons in the cab that auto inject it, and pro diesel mechanics that really know will continue to use it until the end of the diesel engine.
08-30-2006, 08:10 PM
#21
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Ok, I know I should have been convinced before but i'm going to start shopping for gauges, especially a fuel pressure gauge. I have looked at the isspro set from dieselmanor.com, I like the way it looks-seems like a good package deal. I have gathered from reading here that I don't want an isolater for the fuel pressure gauge, am I correct here? Does someone make a similar package with a sending unit for the fuel pressure gauge, that way all that would run into the cab for this gauge would be wires?
About the LP being bad. I know its hard to describe over the net, but is there a normal sound for these things? Mine sounds fine, nice and constant, but I guess that won't tell me if its weak.
Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!
About the LP being bad. I know its hard to describe over the net, but is there a normal sound for these things? Mine sounds fine, nice and constant, but I guess that won't tell me if its weak.
Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!
08-30-2006, 11:42 PM
#22
Registered User
Originally Posted by MtnYJ
About the LP being bad. I know its hard to describe over the net, but is there a normal sound for these things? Mine sounds fine, nice and constant, but I guess that won't tell me if its weak.
08-31-2006, 12:02 AM
#23
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For a short essay on the lift pump, look here. http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=980
08-31-2006, 03:05 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by jrs_dodge_diesel
That's the whole point I was trying to make, NOT to use the grids or glow plugs before shooting ether in. It doesn't take much for ether to light off (due to its low flash point). You don't want it to light off in your intake. Cycling the grids or glow plugs leaves them nice and hot. Ether has its uses but not near these engines. There have been cases of the exploding intake because of this stuff. This is also why Dodge put the sticker near the intake thats says not to use any type of starting fluid on these engines. IMHO there are better ways to get the engine to start without risking blowing parts off an $8,000 engine.
09-01-2006, 10:19 AM
#25
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fuel filter on 97
Guess this is a ?? not reply--how about on a 97 dodge-which works best??
Thanks geb and pups
mex.border@yahoo.com
Thanks geb and pups
mex.border@yahoo.com
09-14-2006, 02:52 PM
#26
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PLEASE, PLEASE, NO ETHER! NO snap start or any other starting fluids! if you are talking an old Detroit 671, 892 or other relic you could get away with it but now a days that is the surest way to destroy a deisel engine there is. even in the old 2 valve head big diesels we could start them without ether if they were in good repair. only the really tired engines required a little help. Hope this helps keep someone from destroying their engine and possibly blowing themselves up!
09-15-2006, 08:14 AM
#27
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but now a days that is the surest way to destroy a deisel engine
09-17-2006, 08:04 PM
#28
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update
Just thought I would fill you guys in. I installed a full set of ISSPRO gauges (Fuel press., EGT, Boost). The install went very well until I got my fuel pressure readings. The guess that the LP was bad was dead on. I had 2 PSI at idle, and you can imagine how well that went when I even thought about hitting the throttle. I installed a new campaign LP yesterday, and now have 13 PSI at idle, cruise around 12, and WOT hasn't gone below 7-8.
P.S. I tried leaving the fuel filter lid a little loose to bleed the system after the pump change, thinking I would get just a few bubbles when it was full.... HA!! Diesel really is hard to wash out isn't it!
Thanks for all the help guys!
P.S. I tried leaving the fuel filter lid a little loose to bleed the system after the pump change, thinking I would get just a few bubbles when it was full.... HA!! Diesel really is hard to wash out isn't it!
Thanks for all the help guys!
09-17-2006, 09:52 PM
#29
Sure takes a long time for the pump to quit when the filter starts sprayin' doesn't it?
I sprayed the area with some Castrol purple cleaner and just hosed it off to clean up the mess.
09-18-2006, 11:50 AM
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This is what I do on my 02:
Drain the fuel filter and remove/replace the fuel filter.
Bump the lstarter once.
With a small screwdriver, press in the valve inside the schrader valve. Most of the air will come out.
Bump the starter again. Repeat the schrader bleeding.
Start the engine and raise the RPMs to 2000 or so and hold it for a minute or two. If there is any air left, the engine will sound like it is going to die and then catch again as the air is purged out of the system..
You are finished. I have done this many times and never had to crack the injector lines open when follow the above instructions. Cracking the injecter lines creates a mess and I worry about spilled fuel burning if I had to change the fuel filter on the side of the road.
I suppose as long as the engine gets started without using ether and burning up the starter, all is good........
Joe
Drain the fuel filter and remove/replace the fuel filter.
Bump the lstarter once.
With a small screwdriver, press in the valve inside the schrader valve. Most of the air will come out.
Bump the starter again. Repeat the schrader bleeding.
Start the engine and raise the RPMs to 2000 or so and hold it for a minute or two. If there is any air left, the engine will sound like it is going to die and then catch again as the air is purged out of the system..
You are finished. I have done this many times and never had to crack the injector lines open when follow the above instructions. Cracking the injecter lines creates a mess and I worry about spilled fuel burning if I had to change the fuel filter on the side of the road.
I suppose as long as the engine gets started without using ether and burning up the starter, all is good........
Joe
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