1st post. Im searching, Im searching
03-13-2009, 12:51 PM
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1st post. Im searching, Im searching
Hi Everyone at DTR. Wow lots to read here. Im looking thru all the post related to the vp44 and transfer pumps on the 24v.
My TP is %100 shot and were guessing the Inj pump will follow closely.
So far Im liking the Fass System. I dont have a need for a performance kit unless perhaps a fuel saving model is available. Would the FASS DDRP suit me? Any recomendations for TP AND INJ pump replacements. Im considering doing this myself. (and I thank A fella named frank for teaching me the easy way that I dont want to loose the VP key in the engine. (Sorry man) However I dont know how to not loose it LOL.)
??Should I even be considering this, everyone says these engines are often good to 600,000km. Mine currently reads 345,000km. This 01 is already way to new and space aged for me so I cant bring myself to get a new model truck. (Anyone selling 91-92 with low kms in west Can. PM me)
....Heres some more background info.....
(pasted from the other forum that recomended me to DTR)
My 01 cummins Dodge 3500 bogs down hard going up hills pulling trailer.
I was stumped and took it to dodge as I thought it was a computer problem.
I thought a replacement comp. would be pricey until they told me it was the fuel transfer pump and thats a $785 part. On top of that they assume that the injector pump has been damaged by being starved by the faulty transfer pump, and that the Inj. pump will need to be changed very soon anyway.
Ha now the Injector pump, they want $2700. Note:Canadian $'s and all these prices are just parts if I install. Dodge labour is 119.00/hr.
Oh and how could I forget... The new transfer pump is not an exact replacement. originaly found on the side of the block the new pump requires a conversion kit that relocates the pump inside the fuel tank.
Anyone else encounter this? The service guy said he was surprised because most of these were replaced under the 150k warenty
I am hoping I can dig up a working used original type transfer pump from another truck and install at a fraction of the cost and see what it solves before I go deep into a $4000.00 bill
(end paste)
My TP is %100 shot and were guessing the Inj pump will follow closely.
So far Im liking the Fass System. I dont have a need for a performance kit unless perhaps a fuel saving model is available. Would the FASS DDRP suit me? Any recomendations for TP AND INJ pump replacements. Im considering doing this myself. (and I thank A fella named frank for teaching me the easy way that I dont want to loose the VP key in the engine. (Sorry man) However I dont know how to not loose it LOL.)
??Should I even be considering this, everyone says these engines are often good to 600,000km. Mine currently reads 345,000km. This 01 is already way to new and space aged for me so I cant bring myself to get a new model truck. (Anyone selling 91-92 with low kms in west Can. PM me)
....Heres some more background info.....
(pasted from the other forum that recomended me to DTR)
My 01 cummins Dodge 3500 bogs down hard going up hills pulling trailer.
I was stumped and took it to dodge as I thought it was a computer problem.
I thought a replacement comp. would be pricey until they told me it was the fuel transfer pump and thats a $785 part. On top of that they assume that the injector pump has been damaged by being starved by the faulty transfer pump, and that the Inj. pump will need to be changed very soon anyway.
Ha now the Injector pump, they want $2700. Note:Canadian $'s and all these prices are just parts if I install. Dodge labour is 119.00/hr.
Oh and how could I forget... The new transfer pump is not an exact replacement. originaly found on the side of the block the new pump requires a conversion kit that relocates the pump inside the fuel tank.
Anyone else encounter this? The service guy said he was surprised because most of these were replaced under the 150k warenty
I am hoping I can dig up a working used original type transfer pump from another truck and install at a fraction of the cost and see what it solves before I go deep into a $4000.00 bill
(end paste)
03-13-2009, 01:23 PM
#2
You shouldn't to go anywhere near $4,000 to fix what you described.
You've got a great truck, it won't take much to address the issues.
For starters. Check for codes. Buy a fuel pressure gauge($50-100). Install an airdog or fass ($500). Don't even bother giving the intank transfer pump a second thought. A factory replacement type transfer pump (mounted on the side of the block) can be had for $150 or so but will not last very long.
Has the truck been giving you the dead pedal or difficult hot starts? The vp44 might not be completely shot, even if it is you could install a new one yourself for $1,100 or so. The injection pump might still be ok for a long time if you just drove it on a dead lift pump for a while.
You've got a great truck, it won't take much to address the issues.
For starters. Check for codes. Buy a fuel pressure gauge($50-100). Install an airdog or fass ($500). Don't even bother giving the intank transfer pump a second thought. A factory replacement type transfer pump (mounted on the side of the block) can be had for $150 or so but will not last very long.
Has the truck been giving you the dead pedal or difficult hot starts? The vp44 might not be completely shot, even if it is you could install a new one yourself for $1,100 or so. The injection pump might still be ok for a long time if you just drove it on a dead lift pump for a while.
03-13-2009, 01:44 PM
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Hey jentas thanks for responding
The truck has had to be parked in my garage for the last 2 months, I dont use it that often so 2months is about how long I noted starting issues,
Thats how it started, It will not start if I leave it outside for even 2 hours at -10. It took me so long to get to the fuel pumps as im a rookie and thought for sure it was a grid heater issue (turns out I screwed up testing the original so I changed it needlessly but now I have a spare) Battery and alt are also new.
If I understand the "Dead pedal" correctly then I only feel that with a heavy load on the trailer. Im foot to the floor and struggling to keep the truck at 2000rpm.
If I went overboard and stressed out the VP44 it was when I hauled a trench hoe weighing in at 9700# on a 7000# trailer. The truck felt worse than ever. I dont really notice any issue after I do get it running until I go to tow the trailer then I bog down on hills I have a heck of a time staying above 80km and Im forever down shifting to keep up with traffic.
I like the frame mount LP replacements. Is it worth to go with the attached Water seperator/filter units.
So Say I brake down and buy a new LP, Inj pump, gauge etc. Is now the time to do nozzels or anything else.? I will of course change the current filter.
The truck has had to be parked in my garage for the last 2 months, I dont use it that often so 2months is about how long I noted starting issues,
Thats how it started, It will not start if I leave it outside for even 2 hours at -10. It took me so long to get to the fuel pumps as im a rookie and thought for sure it was a grid heater issue (turns out I screwed up testing the original so I changed it needlessly but now I have a spare) Battery and alt are also new.
If I understand the "Dead pedal" correctly then I only feel that with a heavy load on the trailer. Im foot to the floor and struggling to keep the truck at 2000rpm.
If I went overboard and stressed out the VP44 it was when I hauled a trench hoe weighing in at 9700# on a 7000# trailer. The truck felt worse than ever. I dont really notice any issue after I do get it running until I go to tow the trailer then I bog down on hills I have a heck of a time staying above 80km and Im forever down shifting to keep up with traffic.
I like the frame mount LP replacements. Is it worth to go with the attached Water seperator/filter units.
So Say I brake down and buy a new LP, Inj pump, gauge etc. Is now the time to do nozzels or anything else.? I will of course change the current filter.
03-13-2009, 01:52 PM
#4
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Dead pedal means the pedal will not control the throttle and the truck will only go to idle. The truck bogging down may be due to other things...what gear are you in. If it is a manual...it may bog down in 5th. Have you done the key on-pff-on-off-on trick and read the odometer. If you do that it may tell you you have codes.
Don't go with the in-tank pump...relocate to the framerail. I would only buy a new VP44 if you are sure it is the problem. Cleat your IAT sensor and your MAP sensor first. You can't stress the VP44 with anything. Also check the fuel filter.
Last...it is odd that it won't start at -10. It should fire up. That could be a grid heater relay or something else. Do you plug it in?
Anyway...good luck...They are great trucks.
Don't go with the in-tank pump...relocate to the framerail. I would only buy a new VP44 if you are sure it is the problem. Cleat your IAT sensor and your MAP sensor first. You can't stress the VP44 with anything. Also check the fuel filter.
Last...it is odd that it won't start at -10. It should fire up. That could be a grid heater relay or something else. Do you plug it in?
Anyway...good luck...They are great trucks.
03-13-2009, 02:04 PM
#5
I would start by installing a fuel pressure gauge and a full fass or airdog, which will essentially replace everything from the fuel tank to the inlet of your injection pump (I would definitely spend the little bit extra to get the water separation and real spin on filter).
Next, buy an obd scanner or borrow one and check for codes stored in the computer. Or, with your truck, I think you can turn the key on twice to get the codes to come up in your odometer screen.
The condition you describe when driving could possibly be a MAP sensor circuit problem, and may not even fuel pump related. I've had a map sensor problem before and the truck would barely accelerate--had nothing to do with injector pump or transfer pump.
You really need to get a fuel pressure gauge and scan for codes to figure out what's really going on.
Injectors, modules, and things of that nature are really personal preference and choices vary depending on what you do most with the truck. However, if you plan on keeping a stock transmission, it seems like you are limited to a light fueling module or mild injectors before installing a built transmission.
Next, buy an obd scanner or borrow one and check for codes stored in the computer. Or, with your truck, I think you can turn the key on twice to get the codes to come up in your odometer screen.
The condition you describe when driving could possibly be a MAP sensor circuit problem, and may not even fuel pump related. I've had a map sensor problem before and the truck would barely accelerate--had nothing to do with injector pump or transfer pump.
You really need to get a fuel pressure gauge and scan for codes to figure out what's really going on.
Injectors, modules, and things of that nature are really personal preference and choices vary depending on what you do most with the truck. However, if you plan on keeping a stock transmission, it seems like you are limited to a light fueling module or mild injectors before installing a built transmission.
03-13-2009, 02:09 PM
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Dead pedal means the pedal will not control the throttle and the truck will only go to idle. The truck bogging down may be due to other things...what gear are you in. If it is a manual...it may bog down in 5th. Have you done the key on-pff-on-off-on trick and read the odometer. If you do that it may tell you you have codes.
Don't go with the in-tank pump...relocate to the framerail. I would only buy a new VP44 if you are sure it is the problem. Cleat your IAT sensor and your MAP sensor first. You can't stress the VP44 with anything. Also check the fuel filter.
Last...it is odd that it won't start at -10. It should fire up. That could be a grid heater relay or something else. Do you plug it in?
Anyway...good luck...They are great trucks.
Don't go with the in-tank pump...relocate to the framerail. I would only buy a new VP44 if you are sure it is the problem. Cleat your IAT sensor and your MAP sensor first. You can't stress the VP44 with anything. Also check the fuel filter.
Last...it is odd that it won't start at -10. It should fire up. That could be a grid heater relay or something else. Do you plug it in?
Anyway...good luck...They are great trucks.
Done the key3 flip, Just had it at dealer and no codes...
Its the 6spd man. and on the longest 300km trip of my life i was in 5,6,5,6,5,6,5,6 for about 4 hrs as needed do make it over that next little hill.
I keep seeing things like (LP changed at 65000k then Inj pump change at 66000km) and the dealer did say the INJ pumps usually go soon after a bad LP. Stressing it by not providing enough fuel to cool the INJ pump
for 2 months I have kept it in the heated garage at +10 and I still have a spuddery start after a min 30sec grid glow time.
- I thought grid instantly and replaced it with new, also new alt. and blue tops.
Doesent help to plug it in although you can feel the Block heater works great.
I left it out one night (plugged in for apx 10hrs) and it took a magnetic heater, Luck and an mps torch to get it going.
I have to solve this I am so tired of moving all the garage stuff to fit the big beast in.
03-13-2009, 02:18 PM
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Nothing comes up with the key3 flip. Ill get my own code reader. but If dodge dealer couldnt find codes I doubt I will.
The dealer work order says...
"Complaint: Check for no start when cold long crank time
Cause: Reqs transfer pump
Correction: Scan test. checked fuel pressure 0 psi at idle checked fuel filter. requires new style transfer pump installed intank $1106.00 plus filter $86.00 total $1192.00. no repair at this time. Starvation of fuel can lead to injection pump failiure. No repair at this time."
I dont really understand how the truck even runs with a 0 psi of fuel but if so that would be hard on an inj pump running with no lube.
The dealer work order says...
"Complaint: Check for no start when cold long crank time
Cause: Reqs transfer pump
Correction: Scan test. checked fuel pressure 0 psi at idle checked fuel filter. requires new style transfer pump installed intank $1106.00 plus filter $86.00 total $1192.00. no repair at this time. Starvation of fuel can lead to injection pump failiure. No repair at this time."
I dont really understand how the truck even runs with a 0 psi of fuel but if so that would be hard on an inj pump running with no lube.
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03-13-2009, 03:02 PM
#8
There is a fuel pressure test port on your truck. If they tested there and got zero psi, your lift pump is dead.
If you've been running on a dead lift pump, your injection pump may be dead or dying. The injection pump likes a constant supply of fuel from the lift pump to cool and lubricate. Running without an operational lift pump causes high heat and low lubrication, and is seen as a main cause of the expensive injection pump failing. This is why the first thing you should do is get a fuel pressure gauge, to make sure the injection pump is never receiving less than 5 psi fuel supply.
There are supposedly applications of the vp44 injection pump where no lift pump is used (this is the same as the truck running with zero psi), so if you're truck wasn't running for very long period of time without an operational lift pump, the vp44 may still have life left in it.
If you've been running on a dead lift pump, your injection pump may be dead or dying. The injection pump likes a constant supply of fuel from the lift pump to cool and lubricate. Running without an operational lift pump causes high heat and low lubrication, and is seen as a main cause of the expensive injection pump failing. This is why the first thing you should do is get a fuel pressure gauge, to make sure the injection pump is never receiving less than 5 psi fuel supply.
There are supposedly applications of the vp44 injection pump where no lift pump is used (this is the same as the truck running with zero psi), so if you're truck wasn't running for very long period of time without an operational lift pump, the vp44 may still have life left in it.
03-13-2009, 04:00 PM
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I will go with the filter/seperator unit then it seems the best for maintence.
I always thought that my 01 3500 4x4 6spdman ext cab,8box ram was rated 235hp. But these 2 options were presented from "midwest fuel injection"
Is this easy to find in the VIN# I am 99% sure this is not an HO cummins
that is rated 245hp ?true? the 6spd was an option on the non HO's
out of curiosity is the 215hp from the 2500 line?
"1998-2002 215HP & 235HP
Dodge 5.9 L VP44 Electronic Fuel Injection Pump
For trucks with Automatic & 5-speed Manual transmissions. Most common pump found on Dodge Pickup Trucks."
OR
"2000-2002 245HP
Dodge 5.9 L VP44 Electronic Fuel Injection Pump
For 2000-02 trucks with 6-speed Manual transmissions. This pump is not as common as the VP44027X pump. To avoid core charges please provide the engine serial number below. This pump will not work for the 235 hp or 215 hp Dodge trucks."
-
Also I am not really loving the local prices and the fact buying thru them often seems to void the manufactures offered lifetime warrenty.
I can say I have never purchased online but am considering now. Are there any online merchants that are reputable with reasonable $'s that deal with Canadians. It seems Geno's might be among them.?
I always thought that my 01 3500 4x4 6spdman ext cab,8box ram was rated 235hp. But these 2 options were presented from "midwest fuel injection"
Is this easy to find in the VIN# I am 99% sure this is not an HO cummins
that is rated 245hp ?true? the 6spd was an option on the non HO's
out of curiosity is the 215hp from the 2500 line?
"1998-2002 215HP & 235HP
Dodge 5.9 L VP44 Electronic Fuel Injection Pump
For trucks with Automatic & 5-speed Manual transmissions. Most common pump found on Dodge Pickup Trucks."
OR
"2000-2002 245HP
Dodge 5.9 L VP44 Electronic Fuel Injection Pump
For 2000-02 trucks with 6-speed Manual transmissions. This pump is not as common as the VP44027X pump. To avoid core charges please provide the engine serial number below. This pump will not work for the 235 hp or 215 hp Dodge trucks."
-
Also I am not really loving the local prices and the fact buying thru them often seems to void the manufactures offered lifetime warrenty.
I can say I have never purchased online but am considering now. Are there any online merchants that are reputable with reasonable $'s that deal with Canadians. It seems Geno's might be among them.?
03-13-2009, 04:07 PM
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Also what range gage should I look at?, 1 kit came with 0-15, but 15 seems a little low. But 100 seemed too high on the other gauge and I doubt it would be accurate scale.
I dont plan on doing so for something I rely on and need so bad, but say I had to.
Princess auto has a transfer pump for 7-15 psi range for 79$ would that do?
I dont plan on doing so for something I rely on and need so bad, but say I had to.
Princess auto has a transfer pump for 7-15 psi range for 79$ would that do?
03-13-2009, 08:04 PM
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215hp engines wer the autos from 98-00, while the 235hp models were the 5 spds from 98-02, 6 spds from 99-00, and 01-02 autos. 245hp were 01-02 6 spds.
Where in western Canada are you? I would call Peak Diesel and see what they charge for a new VP. They are in Abbotsford BC, so quick shipping, no exchange, and Harry is great to deal with. I'd also get a 150 series FASS, or an Airdog. The 150 series has fuel filters that you can get anywhere, the 95 series are much harder to find (they were proprietary to DPP). You will want a 0-30psi gauge, as you will be around 20psi once you get a real lift pump on there.
Where in western Canada are you? I would call Peak Diesel and see what they charge for a new VP. They are in Abbotsford BC, so quick shipping, no exchange, and Harry is great to deal with. I'd also get a 150 series FASS, or an Airdog. The 150 series has fuel filters that you can get anywhere, the 95 series are much harder to find (they were proprietary to DPP). You will want a 0-30psi gauge, as you will be around 20psi once you get a real lift pump on there.
03-13-2009, 08:27 PM
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Thanks guys. wow so I have an H.O. (guess ill stop saying I want one )
Any way to prove this visually, I have seen no markings for this.
I must have been lucky I havent needed anything H.O. specific when I bought parts. Surprised Dodge or others never caught me on it.
So the 150 model hey, only because of filter availability?
I have no plans for high performance mods unless it helps fuel performance greatly. Will the 150 be overkill or anything, I have no mods now.
Oh and im within an hour from calgary
Any way to prove this visually, I have seen no markings for this.
I must have been lucky I havent needed anything H.O. specific when I bought parts. Surprised Dodge or others never caught me on it.
So the 150 model hey, only because of filter availability?
I have no plans for high performance mods unless it helps fuel performance greatly. Will the 150 be overkill or anything, I have no mods now.
Oh and im within an hour from calgary
03-13-2009, 08:40 PM
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I got my IP from Taber Diesel in Alberta, I paid 1150 back in May last yr. they were 400-700$ cheaper than anyone local.
From your descriptions I'd replace the LP first, odds are pretty good Your truck will be fine for a while, not saying your IP is not bad, or wont go bad. but no matter what you need a lift pump first, swap that first then go from there
From your descriptions I'd replace the LP first, odds are pretty good Your truck will be fine for a while, not saying your IP is not bad, or wont go bad. but no matter what you need a lift pump first, swap that first then go from there
03-13-2009, 09:27 PM
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I got my IP from Taber Diesel in Alberta, I paid 1150 back in May last yr. they were 400-700$ cheaper than anyone local.
From your descriptions I'd replace the LP first, odds are pretty good Your truck will be fine for a while, not saying your IP is not bad, or wont go bad. but no matter what you need a lift pump first, swap that first then go from there
From your descriptions I'd replace the LP first, odds are pretty good Your truck will be fine for a while, not saying your IP is not bad, or wont go bad. but no matter what you need a lift pump first, swap that first then go from there
Was your replacement a rebuilt bosch unit?
Did it have a new computer installed?
I would really agree with you under normal cases and I hate to think I am tossing a good pump and losing another $1500 to the truck.
But I am making a long move and will really rely and to a degree torture this truck. If it decided to go on a loaded trip I would be at almost any mechanics mercy and then to rescue a heavy trailer of the highway wont be cheap.