Why remove the RWAL?
03-17-2015, 07:39 AM
#16
Registered User
My experience with RWAL has all been bad. I had it on my 1995 2500 CTD and it NEVER worked well. The best it ever did was to lock/unlock (about a 1 second modulation, way too long) 3 time then lock completely or fail completely and stay that way.
The biggest problem with a split ABS is that the ABS function gets wonky when you pump the brakes (which you need to do in certain situations to keep the front from locking up and sliding). Pumping the brakes on an ABS messes up the anti-lock function. Read any owner's manual for any car with a FULL ABS and it tells you specifically NOT TO PUMP THE BRAKES but to hold pressure on the pedal and let the ABS work.
In situations where I had to pump the brakes in my 1995 the RWAL would either lock or or fail. Several times it caused the ENTIRE brake system to lock up or not work at all for 30-45 seconds. That's an eternity at 25mph or faster.
I understand that there may be legal ramifications for removing factory equipment if there is an accident. If you are in a fatal accident there will be lawsuits regardless of vehicle modifications simply for the fact that you are driving a 22-27 year old vehicle.
Because I have zero confidence in the RWAL on any vehicle (it's a fundamentally bad idea) I will be removing mine when I replace the brake lines. It wouldn't matter if it was functioning or not.
The biggest problem with a split ABS is that the ABS function gets wonky when you pump the brakes (which you need to do in certain situations to keep the front from locking up and sliding). Pumping the brakes on an ABS messes up the anti-lock function. Read any owner's manual for any car with a FULL ABS and it tells you specifically NOT TO PUMP THE BRAKES but to hold pressure on the pedal and let the ABS work.
In situations where I had to pump the brakes in my 1995 the RWAL would either lock or or fail. Several times it caused the ENTIRE brake system to lock up or not work at all for 30-45 seconds. That's an eternity at 25mph or faster.
I understand that there may be legal ramifications for removing factory equipment if there is an accident. If you are in a fatal accident there will be lawsuits regardless of vehicle modifications simply for the fact that you are driving a 22-27 year old vehicle.
Because I have zero confidence in the RWAL on any vehicle (it's a fundamentally bad idea) I will be removing mine when I replace the brake lines. It wouldn't matter if it was functioning or not.
03-17-2015, 07:57 AM
#17
Registered User
I agree. With the sensor on the other side of a coupla hundred pounds of machinery with backlash, and no way of telling which rear wheel might be slipping and operating both in unison, it's a crap shoot on whether it'll even be effective in maintaining control, and a forgone conclusion that it will cost braking distance. When I'm pulling a double jointed string over the road, control and predictability is what it is all about.
The independent 4WAL system on an Astro van I once owned save my bacon more than once. It worked well at any speed on any surface. The worst was when someone stopped in the left lane of 70 MPH rush hour traffic with her right turn signal on. I dynamited the brakes and steered around her like I was on rails, creating so much tire smoke that I couldn't see into the intersection in the rear view mirror.
The independent 4WAL system on an Astro van I once owned save my bacon more than once. It worked well at any speed on any surface. The worst was when someone stopped in the left lane of 70 MPH rush hour traffic with her right turn signal on. I dynamited the brakes and steered around her like I was on rails, creating so much tire smoke that I couldn't see into the intersection in the rear view mirror.
03-17-2015, 08:40 AM
#18
Registered User
New (not remanufactured) master cylinders are still available (Wagner brand) for about $55, which is roughly $25 more than the cost of a reman unit. For a part as critical as the brake master cylinder on a vehicle weighing 6,000 pounds empty, perhaps spending extra to acquire a new unit is the prudent course of action?
03-17-2015, 09:24 AM
#19
Registered User
New (not remanufactured) master cylinders are still available (Wagner brand) for about $55, which is roughly $25 more than the cost of a reman unit. For a part as critical as the brake master cylinder on a vehicle weighing 6,000 pounds empty, perhaps spending extra to acquire a new unit is the prudent course of action?
I installed one last fall, and that brake system is acting like the rear wheel adjusters have stuck. We'll see sometime this week when I get around to checking it out. Odds are good the new Wagner MC is already bad in the rear circuit.
Repair kit is RAYBESTOS # MK1854 I just ordered the last one at Rock Auto. It looks like they are available elsewhere for about $30. One possibility might be to use a China Wagner for a core, and throw the Raybestos kit in it.
It appears we're rapidly getting shut out on repair options for stock master cylinders.
03-17-2015, 09:33 AM
#20
Administrator
New (not remanufactured) master cylinders are still available (Wagner brand) for about $55, which is roughly $25 more than the cost of a reman unit. For a part as critical as the brake master cylinder on a vehicle weighing 6,000 pounds empty, perhaps spending extra to acquire a new unit is the prudent course of action?
03-17-2015, 09:49 AM
#21
Registered User
Wagner sold out to Honeywell, which moved it all to China. Those units, from what I've seen here, seem to last a couple of years. I bought 2, they both had obvious rework on them. It appears that sometime last year they ceased production and the supply line is rapidly drying up.
I installed one last fall, and that brake system is acting like the rear wheel adjusters have stuck. We'll see sometime this week when I get around to checking it out. Odds are good the new Wagner MC is already bad in the rear circuit.
It appears we're rapidly getting shut out on repair options for stock master cylinders.
I installed one last fall, and that brake system is acting like the rear wheel adjusters have stuck. We'll see sometime this week when I get around to checking it out. Odds are good the new Wagner MC is already bad in the rear circuit.
It appears we're rapidly getting shut out on repair options for stock master cylinders.
03-17-2015, 09:52 AM
#22
Registered User
03-17-2015, 11:14 AM
#23
Administrator
03-17-2015, 01:56 PM
#24
Registered User
Thread Starter
My experience with RWAL has all been bad. I had it on my 1995 2500 CTD and it NEVER worked well. The best it ever did was to lock/unlock (about a 1 second modulation, way too long) 3 time then lock completely or fail completely and stay that way.
The biggest problem with a split ABS is that the ABS function gets wonky when you pump the brakes (which you need to do in certain situations to keep the front from locking up and sliding). Pumping the brakes on an ABS messes up the anti-lock function. Read any owner's manual for any car with a FULL ABS and it tells you specifically NOT TO PUMP THE BRAKES but to hold pressure on the pedal and let the ABS work.
In situations where I had to pump the brakes in my 1995 the RWAL would either lock or or fail. Several times it caused the ENTIRE brake system to lock up or not work at all for 30-45 seconds. That's an eternity at 25mph or faster.
I understand that there may be legal ramifications for removing factory equipment if there is an accident. If you are in a fatal accident there will be lawsuits regardless of vehicle modifications simply for the fact that you are driving a 22-27 year old vehicle.
Because I have zero confidence in the RWAL on any vehicle (it's a fundamentally bad idea) I will be removing mine when I replace the brake lines. It wouldn't matter if it was functioning or not.
The biggest problem with a split ABS is that the ABS function gets wonky when you pump the brakes (which you need to do in certain situations to keep the front from locking up and sliding). Pumping the brakes on an ABS messes up the anti-lock function. Read any owner's manual for any car with a FULL ABS and it tells you specifically NOT TO PUMP THE BRAKES but to hold pressure on the pedal and let the ABS work.
In situations where I had to pump the brakes in my 1995 the RWAL would either lock or or fail. Several times it caused the ENTIRE brake system to lock up or not work at all for 30-45 seconds. That's an eternity at 25mph or faster.
I understand that there may be legal ramifications for removing factory equipment if there is an accident. If you are in a fatal accident there will be lawsuits regardless of vehicle modifications simply for the fact that you are driving a 22-27 year old vehicle.
Because I have zero confidence in the RWAL on any vehicle (it's a fundamentally bad idea) I will be removing mine when I replace the brake lines. It wouldn't matter if it was functioning or not.
03-17-2015, 10:01 PM
#25
Registered User
Thread Starter
Wagner sold out to Honeywell, which moved it all to China. Those units, from what I've seen here, seem to last a couple of years. I bought 2, they both had obvious rework on them. It appears that sometime last year they ceased production and the supply line is rapidly drying up.
I installed one last fall, and that brake system is acting like the rear wheel adjusters have stuck. We'll see sometime this week when I get around to checking it out. Odds are good the new Wagner MC is already bad in the rear circuit.
Repair kit is RAYBESTOS # MK1854 I just ordered the last one at Rock Auto. It looks like they are available elsewhere for about $30. One possibility might be to use a China Wagner for a core, and throw the Raybestos kit in it.
It appears we're rapidly getting shut out on repair options for stock master cylinders.
I installed one last fall, and that brake system is acting like the rear wheel adjusters have stuck. We'll see sometime this week when I get around to checking it out. Odds are good the new Wagner MC is already bad in the rear circuit.
Repair kit is RAYBESTOS # MK1854 I just ordered the last one at Rock Auto. It looks like they are available elsewhere for about $30. One possibility might be to use a China Wagner for a core, and throw the Raybestos kit in it.
It appears we're rapidly getting shut out on repair options for stock master cylinders.
03-18-2015, 06:03 AM
#26
Administrator
Why not fabricate an adapter plate and install a good unit like a Wilwood, there should be cylinders with approprate bore sizes.
Brake Hydraulics, Brake Master Cylinders from Speedway Motors, America's Oldest Speed Shop
Brake Hydraulics, Brake Master Cylinders from Speedway Motors, America's Oldest Speed Shop
03-18-2015, 08:15 AM
#27
Registered User
Why not fabricate an adapter plate and install a good unit like a Wilwood, there should be cylinders with approprate bore sizes.
Brake Hydraulics, Brake Master Cylinders from Speedway Motors, America's Oldest Speed Shop
Brake Hydraulics, Brake Master Cylinders from Speedway Motors, America's Oldest Speed Shop
03-18-2015, 09:25 AM
#28
Registered User
This goes in the want-ads. 
BC
BC
03-18-2015, 09:41 AM
#29
Administrator
Seems like it might be time to go back to rebuilding....... I didn't look it up for all of them, but here's the kit for a 1990.
https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,c...,parttype,1840
03-19-2015, 12:38 AM
#30
Registered User
My problem with RWAL is that ABS isn't meant to be a split system. Pumping brakes "confuses" the ABS module and it quits working. With a split system you HAVE to pump brakes in low traction conditions. Panic stops are another thing.
To me the brake system is like a carry gun: if doesn't work EVERY time you pull the trigger its a paper weight. ABS is the same: if it doesn't work EVERY time it is useless and/or dangerous.
I had a 2000 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) with ABS that worked. I could nail the brakes on packed snow with just OK tires, it would modulate 20x per second and I could steer around obstacles. That's how it should be.
I can't speak to how the 1st Gen ABS works b/c my rear cylinders shoot fluid like an SOB and don't work worth a squat. I can only speak to the efficiency (or lack there of) of a 1995 CTD truck.
To me the brake system is like a carry gun: if doesn't work EVERY time you pull the trigger its a paper weight. ABS is the same: if it doesn't work EVERY time it is useless and/or dangerous.
I had a 2000 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) with ABS that worked. I could nail the brakes on packed snow with just OK tires, it would modulate 20x per second and I could steer around obstacles. That's how it should be.
I can't speak to how the 1st Gen ABS works b/c my rear cylinders shoot fluid like an SOB and don't work worth a squat. I can only speak to the efficiency (or lack there of) of a 1995 CTD truck.