maybe368

I would have to search where I found it, but I did find an industry document that said that it does not freeze solid and science tells us that it would contract, not expand, you know, like water does. I may be wrong, but it is this expansion of freezing water that does the most damage. ..Mark

Edit: Here is a thread on that question. it was during the dark days (for me) of the antifreeze wars:

https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...chance-308015/ Edit #2 I just re-read this thread, boy how times have changed, I especially like the part where NJTman says that he's not gonna' do it, Bwaaaaaa ...

edwinsmith

First, if you're in cold weather you should plug in your block heater.

I think you're right about it not expanding when freezing. Does it just jell up when it freezes? If so it would liquify pretty quickly in the block. In the radiator is a different story though so I just don't know. Personally I tend to stay out of cold places. I just don't like the cold or slip-sliding away on ice.

Edwin

maybe368

I said that exact thing in an earlier battle of the antifreeze wars. The good thing is that we destroyed the empire's death star ...Mark

Edit: here are the things that expand when frozen:

Other substances that expand on freezing are silicon, gallium, germanium, antimony, bismuth, plutonium and also chemical compounds that form spacious crystal lattices with tetrahedral coordination. EDIT:The same paragraph says silicon dioxide also exhibits this property...

edwinsmith

I scanned the thread but I was to lazy to completely read it. As for those substances that expand when freezing I don't plan on using any of them for coolant.

Chemistry is just my hobby...

NJTman

Well, this isn't good for us northern guys

Ethylene glycol disrupts hydrogen bonding when dissolved in water. Pure ethylene glycol freezes at about −12 °C (10.4 °F), but when mixed with water, the mixture does not readily crystallize, and therefore the freezing point of the mixture is depressed. Specifically, a mixture of 60% ethylene glycol and 40% water freezes at −45 °C (−49 °F).[3] Diethylene glycol behaves similarly.

maybe368

Here is a thread where freezing is discussed and Lary (Top) deleted about 15 posts. It is known as the battle of antifreeze freezing during the Sith battles. Ofcmarc, from Alaska tells a story of antifreeze freezing in the back of his truck and that it was a gel. This is the only actual experience noted during the battles:

https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...-280120/page3/ ...Mark

Edit: Here is the saga of the battle of antifreezing. It regales us with the story of antifreezing, there were no casualties, except a few sensibilities:

https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ourney-267198/

maybe368

I owned a cabin near Pagosa Springs Colorado for 15 years, I was an avid skier, then snow boarder. My lot had a 6 foot freeze line for the plumbing from the well pump. Every vehicle that I took up there had pure antifreeze in it. Whether it ever froze, I couldn't tell you, but, If it did I was never aware of it. I did, however, have to take my battery inside over night, or I wasn't going skiing...Mark

Edit: This PDF explains that there is some water in ethylene glycol:

https://www.awt.org/pub/01438914-BCF...F-6A6D8C6A0221

james1

Mark, that's an interesting chart:

Ethylene Glycol % => Freezing Temp
33% => 0°F
56% => -50°F
100% => +9°F

Wonder what the curve looks like between 56% and 100%? That is, what is the optimum percentage for ethylene glycol to provide maximum freeze protection and how low is the temperature protection at said percentage?

Thanks for posting.

maybe368

You're welcome. A lot of the scientific stuff is above my pay grade. What I would like to see, is someone living in an area that is dropping below 0 right now, put a gallon of antifreeze out in the cold overnight, to see with my non-scientific eyes, what happens. I was running a little while ago and was thinking about putting a gallon in a -30 degree cold storage facility a few miles from my house. I will even pay for the antifreeze if anyone in the cold would like to humor me. Bear killer posted a few times about this, but I need to go back and read it. What I am real happy about is the civil conversation that we are having, I still have battle scars from the a antifreeze wars ...Mark

james1

Agreed. There are many important things to do battle over -- antifreeze ain't one of 'em.

Note that I just edited my previous post to correct numerical errors.

NJTman

Well, I woke up today, and it was 15*F. I plugged the truck in as I wasn't driving it anywhere, but before I did, I popped the radiator cap, and the reservoir cap, and looked at the green stuff inside.

Looked normal to me.

So, that being said, if we / when we have a cold night, I will be doing exactly that. Putting a jug of antifreeze outside, in a clear container, to see just what happens. If it's going to be 20*F or less, I automatically plug in the truck, and it's nice and toasty when I start it up. Again, this isn't in the radiator, but the upper hose is noticeably warm when I pop the hood in the AM.

You don't owe me anything, other than taking a few photographs of Trumps new wall when you go past it. I'd like to see what my tax dollars are being spent on, and you're the only one I (sort of) know down there.

I'm really doing it for me.




Besides, I don't take pesos

maybe368

They're really having fun with it down here. There is a sign in a store that says "welcome to the friendly side of the wall" and the joke is that they have changed their mind, they want to pay for the wall, to keep the crazy Americans out. Unless you are a coyote or Guatemalan trying to cross, they don't really care what we do. I hate to say it, but I hope you have a cold night pretty soon, I really want to know what a real world test will show. It was kind of fun reading through those old threads about the antifreeze ...Mark

edwinsmith

Although the article didn't specifically spell out the characteristics of 100% EG, my takeaway is that the freezing point is when the solution begins to crystallize. So if EG just begins to crystallize at 10F then it is still pumpable. As soon as you start the engine it will quickly heat up and become fully pumpable. What would happen at the thermostat? Being that there is only a small hole to allow flow when it is closed would the hole plug up and not allow the thermostat to open?

Is there such a thing as a radiator heater for this situation? Would a circulating heater alleviate this potential problem?

At any rate I plan to go to 100% after I get back from Tucson next week. Here in SoCal I don't see temps getting down to 10F anytime soon if ever.

I still need to know if there is a way to get all of the old coolant out of the block. Are there drain plugs in the block?

maybe368

I think that one of these would get most of the old antifreeze out and they are really useful for transferring any liquid:

I can't seem to get a link to work, so: MV7300 Pneumativac
Operates on compressed air to create a powerful venturi vacuum for draining fluids from tanks and reservoirs.

Compressed air hose attaches at base for stability. Includes accessories for draining engine oil or transmission fluid directly through the dipstick tubes.

Also includes brake/clutch bleeding kit (Model No. 07205) for vacuum bleeding hydraulic brake and clutch systems.

Mityvac Fluid Evacuator / Pump Review - YouTube

it is the MV7300 that I have, second one down on the page, very handy.

I don't know exactly what they are called, but there is a type of engine heater that goes onto a radiator hose and uses convection to circulate the coolant. Wait, maybe it's a convection heater . It might be a pain, but you could take out an easily accessible freeze plug and get it all out...Mark


Edit: here is one, I don't know how well they work: https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/z...200003/4871358

oliver foster

It has been warm here the past few days and I rolled Poncho out of the shop and parked it in the un heated pole barn. I did this so I could have a little extra shop space to tear into the 2wd Ramcharger project. I checked the radiator today after reading this and at 10F the fluid was as you would assume it would look like.
I left a gallon jug of 100% antifreeze on the back shop step to run as a test and I will tuck Poncho back in the heated shop where it is warm until further research is done.