Begle1

The primary problem with most all the veggie oil systems people have built is low temperature; the veggie oil is too cold without the motor running to flow, and so it is required to use regular Diesel to warm up the veggie oil.

So what if you were to modify your 120 volt block heater to heat up the water in the entire veggie oil system, rather than just the block? You could use a 120 volt aquarium pump or something of the nature to circulate the water through the block and through all of the veggie, even while the engine is off.

For plumbing, I'm sure that there are many things that you could do. I don't know what the optimum way would be, though. I'm sure that you wouldn't want to use the heater to heat all of the water in the radiator, just the stuff in the veggie lines, which means that you're going to need some valves. The goal is to make the system use the least number of valves possible, though, and I don't know the best way to do that...

Current idea: what would happen if I were to run the coolant out of the plugs on the rear of the block like somebody here was detailing a few months ago. I pump the coolant from one of those plugs, through my veggie lines and tank, and then back into the block. (I don't think that the pump will need to be too large.) The thermostat will remain closed until all of that water is heated up to whatever the temperature the thermostat opens at; and then the coolant going through the veggie will stabalize at that temperature.

But then what happens when the big water pump starts to pump coolant through the block? When the engine is running, you would need a valve to bypass the block on the way back to the radiator, right?



So, to make sure this plan will work:
1. How much water is stored in the engine block at any one time? I know it takes a couple hours for the block heaters to heat up the water in just the block, so if you were to add the water in about 50 feet of 1/4 inch line to that amount, would the block heaters be capable of heating that up as well? Most of the line will be insulated in veggie oil or fiberglass...
2. How hot does the block heater get the water? I think it gets it to open up the thermostat even, correct?
3. At what temperature does the stock thermostat open at? Can I get a thermostat that opens at a higher temperature?
4. Does anybody remember that thread about running the coolant out two ports on the back of the block? I can't find it..

I'm sorry if it's hard to understand what I'm saying; I'll draw a plumbing diagram and put it into my gallery.

So, what does everybody think? Even if this doesn't work, I think I'm going to use enough electrical heating elements in this system to achieve much the same results...

edwinsmith

I think heating the whole tank of veggie oil is inefficient. Also plumbing the heat off the engine would take a while to do on a cold day. You'd also need to insulate the tank to avoid losing more heat from the engine which will cost mileage due to thermodynamic losses.

I would try to find a small 12V liquid flow through heater and heat the veg oil as it comes from the tank. If you wanted to get real sophisticated then use a thermistor controller to regulate the temp to what you want. This assumes that the oil in the tank is somewhat liquid and can be pumped in the first place. This might not be true at 10 degrees where I've seen canola oil turn to a solid in the bottle when I left it on the back porch.

Edwin

Begle1

I don't know if you can heat up the oil fast enough to fully liquify it before it reaches the injection pump, and you have to warm up the tank a little just so you can pump the oil from the tank with your lift pump.

The line I'm thinking of using has a 220 (I think) degree heating element with two 1/4 inch teflon tubes and one 3/8 inch teflon tube, all wrapped up in fiberglass... So, what I can also do is use that heating element in the line to heat up the water and veggie; I might even be able to use that for heating to some degree while I'm on the road, but that's going to take a lot of amps at only 12 volts.

So I could probably use that heater instead of the blockheater... Or I could use both... But I still think that I want to route my coolant out of the rear of the engine, just so I could heat up the veggie system to thermostat temp without waiting for the entire radiator to warm up.

On another note, can you rig the block heater to work while you're driving?

edwinsmith

It's possible to get much higher voltages out of an alternator but you'd need to disconnect it from the other 12V stuff while you were running it that way. If you could use a second alternator and a custom voltage regulator you could make 110 VDC to run the heater. The heater doesn't care if it gets AC or DC. Back in the 70's there was a little box you could hook up to the alternator to use it to run power tools on a job site. The only problem is that the battery didn't get charged so you didn't want to run it for hours.

Also you might see if you can find the heater elements from a 110 volt water heater to run separately instead of doing the complexity of heating the engine then using the hot water to heat the oil. Put the heater(s) in the tank and insulate it well with styrofoam, top, bottom and sides and you might have a decent system. Insulate the oil lines as well. The other reason you would want to separate the engine heat is because if you go above the thermostat opening point you begin wasting energy out the radiator.

Edwin

Begle1

I know that I could get at least 20 volts out of my alternator before I replaced the voltage regulator.


Anyways, I don't think that I'd need the complexity of using two heating elements or two alternators. The stock alternator is good for 120 amps? At 12 volts, that's a maximum of 1440 watts of heat... The same element at 110 volts would make 1440 watts at 13 amps... 1440 watts is 82 BTU/ min, so every minute I could raise 1 gallon of water 82 degrees? (me iz maztr elektrison... ) If I need more amps, aftermaket alternators can be good for up to around 250 amps (I think)?

The idea of using electric heaters to heat water is appealing because you can get heated water from the radiator once the engine is already running, so you only have to rely on the heating elements until you've driven a few miles down the road, and then you can use waste heat from the engine. You set the heating elements in a circuit with a thermistor to maintain the oil temperate at 180 degrees; before the engine gets warm the heaters are running full blast, but once the engine gets happy they shut themselves off.

I like the idea of using a stand-alone AC electric heater in the tank, but I don't know how big such units are. Also, since I'm going to have coolant lines in the tank as it is, in my opinion it would actually be less complex to just heat and locally circulate a small supply of water before the engine is running.

I believe it's a very elegant solution, and I've seen anybody do it this way before.

Mainly I need to know the possibility of routing water out of the back of the water jacket like that, and how much water is in the water jacket stock...

Baja

You may be going through a lot of hassle for not much in return. I run my block heater along with a oil pan heater winter and summer. This, along with my vegatherm, allows me to switch over in about 2 miles reguardless of the outside temp when I start my engine. If you really wanted a instant heat, I would add a electric vegatherm right in front of the LP, switched to the cab. Next would be electric injection line heaters from Fattywagon for about $22.00. I think you need two sets for the Dodge, so that would be $44.00. These will heat the lines in a very short time to allow a almost instant switchover. Once everything else is up to temp, shut the electric stuff off. If the oil in your tank is too thick to flow, get better oil, or install a electric heater wired to the same plug as your block heater. Your block heater, no matter how you plumb it, will get hydrogenated oil to flow, but in no way will it get it hot enough for injection.

Begle1

Well thanks a lot; now you're telling me that my brilliantly elegant solution solves a problem that isn't really there?

I think that the million dollar question is how hot the oil needs to be in order to achieve maximum performance. If it should be 180 to pump it, how hot should it be for the injection pump to achieve maximum longetivity and how hot should it be for the injectors?

I think that the billion dollar question is at what temperature does veggie oil have the same viscosity as #2 Diesel fuel. I'd imagine that's the temperature we should be aiming at for maimum injection system life.

So when you switch to veggie oil, do you know what temperature your oil is at? Or do you just know that it works? I'm sure that the lift pump can pump the oil pretty cold, but I wouldn't think the injection pump likes cold oil at all. It might take years off of lift pump life, as well.

The way I see what you're suggesting, it looks like relatively warm oil is going through the lift pump, and then it is getting heated in the filter, and then it goes into the injection pump, and then is heated again in the injection lines.

Do you think that the oil will absorb enough heat in the filter to be good for the injection pump? And if the oil was too cold, wouldn't it slow down in the filter and starve the injection pump?

You also say that the block heater gets the oil to flow no matter the temperature, but does this statement include freezing or sub-zero temperatures? I think that the veggie gets like pudding below zero? I'd like as much of an all-weather system as possible.

Another important question is how fast can veggie oil absorb heat... How long does it need to be next to a 200 degree heating element before it gets to be 200 degrees? Likewise, how hot does the 300 degree injection line heater really get the oil in the very short time that the oil is in the line?

I would sure like to be as simple as possible, but I don't think it'd be too much more effort to use an aquarium-pump system if that would be any benefit at all.

Which comes back to the original question: is it possible to have all of the engine coolant to flow out of only one rear plug, and is it possible to have it all flow out of one plug and back into the other?

Thank you Baja for the continued advice. And Edwin.

Baja

You are killing me here.
The oil should be AT LEAST 120 degrees. 150-180 (your H2O temp) is plenty. Above that the viscosity will go down, but not that much, so there is no need to go overboard.

When i switch, I just know it works. I have a Flat Plate Heat Exchanger just before the IP, so I know that the oil coming out of that is the same temp as the water.

No, HOT oil is going to the lift pump. I have a heat coil in my tank, and hot water flowing through my filter as well as having the filter element wrapped in water hose. The fuel line is wrapped around hot water hoses as well. You can get a hose in hose set up, which I think is much better arrangment, but mine will do for now.

Too cold oil will clog any filter with a grease or vaseline looking gunk. Not good. Oil that is warm enough to flow through the filters, but not hot enough to inject, will still inject, but it is like trying to squirt butter through a windex bottle. Not good, it will screw up the injectors

I never said the block heater gets the oil to flow, the only thing the block heater does for me is allow the engine to reach operating temps sooner, letting me switch to WVO that much sooner, nothing more.

How fast the oil can absorb heat is dependent on a bunch of things. If it is in a thick rubber hose, then not so fast. If it is in a aluminum tube, then it will absorb faster. That is why I think a hose in hose arrangment is best. From my experience, the fuel heats up pretty fast in the line heaters. At first, I switch on the heater, letting it heat up the diesel for a few minutes before I hit the switch for the WVO. This gets the diesel hot, which slowly starts to mix with the WVO as it enters the system once I hit the switch. Remember, my return line is looped back through the IP, not to the tank, so once that recirculating fuel gets hot, it stays that way. I also have very thick B-100 hose wrapped in insulation to minimize heat loss.

I can't answer about the rear plug question, but I don't think it is necessary. I don't see a gain in doing that. If you are trying to speed up the switchover process, I would use electric heat switched to the cab. Faster, more control.

edwinsmith

Thanks Baja for a very good explanation.

I just had a thought for a cheap and dirty water to oil heat exchanger.

Get 2 lengths of copper tubing. a larger one for the coolant to flow through and a smaller one sized for the oil.

Lay then out in a line right next to each other and solder them together with good high temp solder then cover the assemble with pipe insulation. You could probably coil the assembley with more effort but the solder bond gives you excellent heat transfer and the insulation keeps you from losing more heat than necessary.

Edwin

MoparMarv

In the dead middle of winter(chicago) with just a blanket on the tank I'm able to see temp go from 180 to 100 overnight. That is inside a rabbit. the oil holds heat well. And once on the road it takes about 3-5miles to get it up to temp(150). When i first got into this I was going crazy with all these ways to heat the oil quicker for cold weather operation. I don't know if you put the system in yet but I would say set it up and mod as need from there. It always good to think of new ideas though. I'll be honest even though I know the simplest WVO system works fine I'm still dreaming up ways to make it more complex than it needs to be. Your in So cal too i don't think you need to worry about heating the oil much. I a crunch if you need to heat up oil they sell these bucket heaters that heat up to 180*. Drop that in for an hour and your set.

skchevota

Has any body used an auto trans heat exchanger to heat the oil on the way to the injection pump. plumed to the engine with the block heater plugged in it should be hot almost at startup. then you would just have to keep the veggie tank warm enough not to solidify. ( if my garage were only bigger)

thorshammer

Check out greasecars and frybird. I am looking into it and hope to have a 1990 Dodge to convert soon. The kit runs about 1100.00 to 1400.00 and greasecars has a filtering system for around 850. From what I read the oil needs to be between 120 and 160. I will post more when I know and test more.