R-134a The Other GAS
07-25-2013, 07:42 PM
#31
Administrator
07-25-2013, 09:29 PM
#32
Registered User
No, I got your point. I don't know the concentration of the ammonia in what is used as a refrigerant, but I can attest to what happens when those big tanks that are used for fertilizer in the fields leak. I have personal experience with three dead kids from one leaking and an entire neighborhood evacuated. Natural was a bad word to use, as arsenic is natural as well as many other toxic things. Better to have said, it doesn't belong in the water, food supply or anywhere else that humans come in contact with it, especially in high concentrations. Hydrogen peroxide in concentration below 30% is great for cleaning wounds, in concentrations above 90%, it explodes if you look at it wrong, ask me how I know. I was first on scene and command of an incident involving 3500 pounds of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide(mekp) that was burning in a trailer (cargo type). At the time, sometime in the 80s, it was the ONLY incident involving that chemical and fire that did not kill any firefighters. I saved my crew by evacuating the scene and made no attempt to put it out, as it is also a powerful oxidizer. To see what happens, go put water on burning magnesium...Mark
What makes anhydrous so dangerous is it's affinity for water. You get some in your lungs, and they are instantly dehydrated, which is effectively a burn. H2O2, or MEK peroxide are oxidizers in a class with nitric acid.
Amonia, in small concentrations, is normal in soil. In fact it would be hard to grow anything without it.
08-10-2013, 05:26 AM
#34
Administrator
Thread Starter
Propane and Ammonia both work as refridgerants, I would never consider either in my vehicle. If for whatever reason the evap coil leaked into the cab, there is an immediate hazard with both chemicals. Propane is flammable and ammonia is suffocating. I know R12 and R134a aren't to be inhaled, but I don't think there is as bad of an immediate threat with them.
I was working in a freezer warehouse in construction, all the refer. equipment was up and running and one of the used evaperators they bought (about 25' long each) burst open while cooling down. The ammonia was not good, thankfully I was pretty close to the exit and knew to get out before I smelled ammonia. A few had to go to the hospital.
I was working in a freezer warehouse in construction, all the refer. equipment was up and running and one of the used evaperators they bought (about 25' long each) burst open while cooling down. The ammonia was not good, thankfully I was pretty close to the exit and knew to get out before I smelled ammonia. A few had to go to the hospital.
This happened through:
* The old Halide Leak Detector so many of us used in HVAC poisioned many technicians.
* Engine fires where the system would rupture.
* Smoking a cigarette in the vicinity of R-12 would give you a direct hit.
Phosgene Gas was responsible for most of the deaths in WW-I and was used into WW-II, It smells like New Mown or Musty Hay.
As little as 0.4 ppm can be fatal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/phosgene/basics/facts.asp
Also while on the subject of nasty things, This is important for all of the amaure welders, this might save your life.
Be very careful when you use Chloronated Brake Cleaner Sprays, if you use it to clean a part before you weld, you could possibly wake up and find yourself dead.
Chloronated Brake Cleaner when heated with the UV from an arc will produce Phosgene Gas, and all it takes is a small puff of the gas to do you in.
http://artbikerworld.com/?tag=welding-hazards
I do not want to scare you but just want you to be aware.
Jim
08-10-2013, 06:44 AM
#35
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My brother in law has worked in commercial refrigeration for 25 yrs. When he was young he got a big gulp of phosgene from welding in the vicinity of refrigerant.
Luckily he was with someone who was familiar with phosgene, and they picked him up and stood him on his head. He said he could watch the phosgene gas roll out of his mouth while on his head.
Apparently the gas is heavier then oxygen, once in your lungs, it displaces all the oxygen and stays in there, so standing on your head let's gravity do the work. Good thing he was with someone who knew about it.
Never heard about the brake cleaner though, thanks for the warning Jim, you might have saved a few lives and not even know it!!
Luckily he was with someone who was familiar with phosgene, and they picked him up and stood him on his head. He said he could watch the phosgene gas roll out of his mouth while on his head.
Apparently the gas is heavier then oxygen, once in your lungs, it displaces all the oxygen and stays in there, so standing on your head let's gravity do the work. Good thing he was with someone who knew about it.
Never heard about the brake cleaner though, thanks for the warning Jim, you might have saved a few lives and not even know it!!
08-10-2013, 08:43 AM
#36
Registered User
My brother in law has worked in commercial refrigeration for 25 yrs. When he was young he got a big gulp of phosgene from welding in the vicinity of refrigerant.
Luckily he was with someone who was familiar with phosgene, and they picked him up and stood him on his head. He said he could watch the phosgene gas roll out of his mouth while on his head.
Apparently the gas is heavier then oxygen, once in your lungs, it displaces all the oxygen and stays in there, so standing on your head let's gravity do the work. Good thing he was with someone who knew about it.
Never heard about the brake cleaner though, thanks for the warning Jim, you might have saved a few lives and not even know it!!
Luckily he was with someone who was familiar with phosgene, and they picked him up and stood him on his head. He said he could watch the phosgene gas roll out of his mouth while on his head.
Apparently the gas is heavier then oxygen, once in your lungs, it displaces all the oxygen and stays in there, so standing on your head let's gravity do the work. Good thing he was with someone who knew about it.
Never heard about the brake cleaner though, thanks for the warning Jim, you might have saved a few lives and not even know it!!
Any time I'm applying flame to a refrigeration part, I make sure there's good ventilation, and preferably a gentle breeze at my back.
When I was a kid, about mid last century, there was a product that amounted to a bottle of carbon tetrachloride in an upside down bottle with a low melting point metal plug in it, to be hung over the wood stove as a fire extinguisher. Many people lost their lives before they were recalled in the late 50's. There's still some in service.
http://www.tpromo2.com/ssmag/fire/exting.htm
Any chlorinated hydrocarbon will decompose into phosgene given high heat and a catalyst, such as a metal. Non-flamable brake cleaner is trichloroethylene, trichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, or some similar compound. A small amount trapped in a fissure or crack in the metal you just cleaned can generate enough phosgene when hit with a gas flame or electric arc to do you great harm.
In a refrigeration system, I don't see any more danger from the unlikely flash burn of a pound of propane than the phosgene generation likely under the same (unlikely) circumstances from freon and hot metal in an engine compartment fire.
Phosgene is not a nerve poison. It kills by destroying the lungs ability to absorb oxygen. The odor threshhold of 0.4 ppm is 4 times the potentially lethal threshhold of 0.1 ppm. In other words, if you smell the new mown hay, you've been had. You may have time to say goodbye. The process is sometimes slow, but usually fatal.
It is also extremely corrosive. I've seen many furnace heat exchangers taken out by low levels of freon in the atmosphere from hair spray and deodorants.
08-10-2013, 08:54 AM
#37
Administrator
That wasn't phosgene, that was the refrigerant itself. A high school kid near here bought the farm. A bunch of kids were inhaling helium and noting their voice change. He decided to try freon. Nobody knew to tip him over and dump it out.
Any time I'm applying flame to a refrigeration part, I make sure there's good ventilation, and preferably a gentle breeze at my back.
When I was a kid, about mid last century, there was a product that amounted to a bottle of carbon tetrachloride in an upside down bottle with a low melting point metal plug in it, to be hung over the wood stove as a fire extinguisher. Many people lost their lives before they were recalled in the late 50's. There's still some in service.
http://www.tpromo2.com/ssmag/fire/exting.htm
Any chlorinated hydrocarbon will decompose into phosgene given high heat and a catalyst, such as a metal. Non-flamable brake cleaner is trichloroethylene, trichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, or some similar compound. A small amount trapped in a fissure or crack in the metal you just cleaned can generate enough phosgene when hit with a gas flame or electric arc to do you great harm.
In a refrigeration system, I don't see any more danger from the unlikely flash burn of a pound of propane than the phosgene generation likely under the same (unlikely) circumstances from freon and hot metal in an engine compartment fire.
Phosgene is not a nerve poison. It kills by destroying the lungs ability to absorb oxygen. The odor threshhold of 0.4 ppm is 4 times the potentially lethal threshhold of 0.1 ppm. In other words, if you smell the new mown hay, you've been had. You may have time to say goodbye. The process is sometimes slow, but usually fatal.
It is also extremely corrosive. I've seen many furnace heat exchangers taken out by low levels of freon in the atmosphere from hair spray and deodorants.
Any time I'm applying flame to a refrigeration part, I make sure there's good ventilation, and preferably a gentle breeze at my back.
When I was a kid, about mid last century, there was a product that amounted to a bottle of carbon tetrachloride in an upside down bottle with a low melting point metal plug in it, to be hung over the wood stove as a fire extinguisher. Many people lost their lives before they were recalled in the late 50's. There's still some in service.
http://www.tpromo2.com/ssmag/fire/exting.htm
Any chlorinated hydrocarbon will decompose into phosgene given high heat and a catalyst, such as a metal. Non-flamable brake cleaner is trichloroethylene, trichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, or some similar compound. A small amount trapped in a fissure or crack in the metal you just cleaned can generate enough phosgene when hit with a gas flame or electric arc to do you great harm.
In a refrigeration system, I don't see any more danger from the unlikely flash burn of a pound of propane than the phosgene generation likely under the same (unlikely) circumstances from freon and hot metal in an engine compartment fire.
Phosgene is not a nerve poison. It kills by destroying the lungs ability to absorb oxygen. The odor threshhold of 0.4 ppm is 4 times the potentially lethal threshhold of 0.1 ppm. In other words, if you smell the new mown hay, you've been had. You may have time to say goodbye. The process is sometimes slow, but usually fatal.
It is also extremely corrosive. I've seen many furnace heat exchangers taken out by low levels of freon in the atmosphere from hair spray and deodorants.
...Mark
08-11-2013, 06:37 AM
#38
Administrator
Thread Starter
That wasn't phosgene, that was the refrigerant itself. A high school kid near here bought the farm. A bunch of kids were inhaling helium and noting their voice change. He decided to try freon. Nobody knew to tip him over and dump it out.
Any time I'm applying flame to a refrigeration part, I make sure there's good ventilation, and preferably a gentle breeze at my back.
When I was a kid, about mid last century, there was a product that amounted to a bottle of carbon tetrachloride in an upside down bottle with a low melting point metal plug in it, to be hung over the wood stove as a fire extinguisher. Many people lost their lives before they were recalled in the late 50's. There's still some in service.
http://www.tpromo2.com/ssmag/fire/exting.htm
Any chlorinated hydrocarbon will decompose into phosgene given high heat and a catalyst, such as a metal. Non-flamable brake cleaner is trichloroethylene, trichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, or some similar compound. A small amount trapped in a fissure or crack in the metal you just cleaned can generate enough phosgene when hit with a gas flame or electric arc to do you great harm.
In a refrigeration system, I don't see any more danger from the unlikely flash burn of a pound of propane than the phosgene generation likely under the same (unlikely) circumstances from freon and hot metal in an engine compartment fire.
Phosgene is not a nerve poison. It kills by destroying the lungs ability to absorb oxygen. The odor threshhold of 0.4 ppm is 4 times the potentially lethal threshhold of 0.1 ppm. In other words, if you smell the new mown hay, you've been had. You may have time to say goodbye. The process is sometimes slow, but usually fatal.
It is also extremely corrosive. I've seen many furnace heat exchangers taken out by low levels of freon in the atmosphere from hair spray and deodorants.
Any time I'm applying flame to a refrigeration part, I make sure there's good ventilation, and preferably a gentle breeze at my back.
When I was a kid, about mid last century, there was a product that amounted to a bottle of carbon tetrachloride in an upside down bottle with a low melting point metal plug in it, to be hung over the wood stove as a fire extinguisher. Many people lost their lives before they were recalled in the late 50's. There's still some in service.
http://www.tpromo2.com/ssmag/fire/exting.htm
Any chlorinated hydrocarbon will decompose into phosgene given high heat and a catalyst, such as a metal. Non-flamable brake cleaner is trichloroethylene, trichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, or some similar compound. A small amount trapped in a fissure or crack in the metal you just cleaned can generate enough phosgene when hit with a gas flame or electric arc to do you great harm.
In a refrigeration system, I don't see any more danger from the unlikely flash burn of a pound of propane than the phosgene generation likely under the same (unlikely) circumstances from freon and hot metal in an engine compartment fire.
Phosgene is not a nerve poison. It kills by destroying the lungs ability to absorb oxygen. The odor threshhold of 0.4 ppm is 4 times the potentially lethal threshhold of 0.1 ppm. In other words, if you smell the new mown hay, you've been had. You may have time to say goodbye. The process is sometimes slow, but usually fatal.
It is also extremely corrosive. I've seen many furnace heat exchangers taken out by low levels of freon in the atmosphere from hair spray and deodorants.
http://images.search.yahoo.com/searc...uisher+grenade
http://antiquescenter.blogspot.com/2...ride-fire.html
My grandfather used to have a custom woodworking window frame and cabinet shop in the early to mid 1950's and I remember seeing those all
over the shop, I was always intrigues by those things with all of the large open unguarded belts and whirring saw blades, sawdust hopper explosions were also common.
At home I still have an old Carbon Tetrachloride Pump Fire Extinguisher that my dad gave me that came from a B-17, imagine being at 30,00 feet and trying to put out a fire by squirting carbon-tet on it and the vapor it was producing.
If you remember these, then you must be near the same part of the century that I am.
Did you used to watch Sputnik in the evening sky, you could pick up the telemetry on a shortwave receiver and hear the beeping as it passed overhead.
The 50's were scary times.
Jim
wow only here can a disscusion go from from refrigerant to sputnik with hairspray inbetween . that's what makes this site so cool.
08-11-2013, 01:00 PM
#40
Registered User
With a Radio Shack one tube regenerative short wave receiver. Long wire antenna between the house and the garage.
08-11-2013, 01:01 PM
#41
Registered User
08-11-2013, 01:20 PM
#42
Administrator
...Mark
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