OK, here's your chance...
11-20-2012, 04:42 PM
#46
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I am thinking that the flamability rating of items on a MSDS sheet are at specific temperature to keep things equal, not sure but I would think that temperature would be closer to room temperature and at that range then no it is most likely not a fire or health hazard, then again not much is. Now at an upper operating temperature of an overworked vehicle with a neglected cooling system then the flammability would be much greater. Once a fluid is hot, pressurized and sprayed as a fine mist then you know its dangers are greatly increased.
According to wlamarts MSDS sheet it looks like supertech 100% antifreeze is made by prestone, here it is
Also it contains 1-5% water, so you have some in there already so why not just use some more distilled and keep it safe?
The antifreeze has a health rating of 2
Here is the fire part :
I watched antifreeze burn yesterday, I lit it on fire so I could tell you that I have actually seen antifreeze burn. In the reports I have read they say that the water has to evaporate from the mix before it will burn, so with a OEM recommended % there is little chance that the fire will be caused by the coolant. It takes a lot of energy for a component to go through a phase change( such as the water going from a liquid to a gaseous state), when the coolant is exposed to a fire the water is holding the temperature down to the 212*F range while it is converted to steam, without any water there is nothing to keep the temperature down and it will quickly heat to a temperature where it will burn on its own. of those fires you went to then it is unlikely that any of the cars were running 100% antifreeze.
being too rich or lean has nothing to do with the percentage of the fluid mixture, that is a air/fuel ratio and brings another excellent point that a firefighter must be very aware of. Yes, if the A/F ratio is too rich it will not burn..... until some more oxygen leans it out...then it explodes. Just like the movies when they leave the propane stove on.
All that is needed to burn is heat, air and fuel and I am absolutely certain that a 100% mix is going to burn much sooner than a 50/50 mix.
Here is a warning on inhaling the vapors
This heated material in an enclosed and poorly ventilated workplace sounds like the cab of a truck with a leaking heater core. A quick search will show cases where people have experienced these symptoms along with a leaking heater core, and thats at a lesser concentration.
According to wlamarts MSDS sheet it looks like supertech 100% antifreeze is made by prestone, here it is
Also it contains 1-5% water, so you have some in there already so why not just use some more distilled and keep it safe?
The antifreeze has a health rating of 2
Here is the fire part :
I watched antifreeze burn yesterday, I lit it on fire so I could tell you that I have actually seen antifreeze burn. In the reports I have read they say that the water has to evaporate from the mix before it will burn, so with a OEM recommended % there is little chance that the fire will be caused by the coolant. It takes a lot of energy for a component to go through a phase change( such as the water going from a liquid to a gaseous state), when the coolant is exposed to a fire the water is holding the temperature down to the 212*F range while it is converted to steam, without any water there is nothing to keep the temperature down and it will quickly heat to a temperature where it will burn on its own. of those fires you went to then it is unlikely that any of the cars were running 100% antifreeze.
being too rich or lean has nothing to do with the percentage of the fluid mixture, that is a air/fuel ratio and brings another excellent point that a firefighter must be very aware of. Yes, if the A/F ratio is too rich it will not burn..... until some more oxygen leans it out...then it explodes. Just like the movies when they leave the propane stove on.
All that is needed to burn is heat, air and fuel and I am absolutely certain that a 100% mix is going to burn much sooner than a 50/50 mix.
Here is a warning on inhaling the vapors
This heated material in an enclosed and poorly ventilated workplace sounds like the cab of a truck with a leaking heater core. A quick search will show cases where people have experienced these symptoms along with a leaking heater core, and thats at a lesser concentration.
Like I said, burning antifreeze was the least of my worries as a fire captain, but I appreciate the input...Mark
11-20-2012, 04:52 PM
#47
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Mark,
Since we're all "NOW" being civil, could you do me a favor ?
Can you tell me if you've ever tested your antifreeze that has been in your vehicles, for such extended periods of times you say you have, and what was the results of the tests. I'm not talking about the prestone AF tester with the little ***** or red plastic arrow in it, I'm talking about actual AF tests strips for acidity / alkalinity.
Do you test for this to see if your AF has been compromised ?
If so, what was the readings you found ?
If not, would you test it ? You can buy the strips on Amazon, or if you don't want to spend a penny, PM me your address and I'll mail you out some strips for you to test.
Thanks !
Since we're all "NOW" being civil, could you do me a favor ?
Can you tell me if you've ever tested your antifreeze that has been in your vehicles, for such extended periods of times you say you have, and what was the results of the tests. I'm not talking about the prestone AF tester with the little ***** or red plastic arrow in it, I'm talking about actual AF tests strips for acidity / alkalinity.
Do you test for this to see if your AF has been compromised ?
If so, what was the readings you found ?
If not, would you test it ? You can buy the strips on Amazon, or if you don't want to spend a penny, PM me your address and I'll mail you out some strips for you to test.
Thanks !
11-20-2012, 04:58 PM
#48
Registered User
it was of the least of your worries because it was mixed and not at 100%.
A quick scenario.
your trapped upside down in your truck and the fluids are running out, lets say the diesel catches on fire first for whatever reason, the burning temperature of diesel is a few thousand degrees so its just a matter of time before the pool of coolant also catches on fire and burns as well, or even worse the coolant doesn't escape and just sets in the flame engulfed radiator building pressure and temperature until the hose melts off and the entire contents comes gushing out ready to burn.
then you can bet it will be of concern
A quick scenario.
your trapped upside down in your truck and the fluids are running out, lets say the diesel catches on fire first for whatever reason, the burning temperature of diesel is a few thousand degrees so its just a matter of time before the pool of coolant also catches on fire and burns as well, or even worse the coolant doesn't escape and just sets in the flame engulfed radiator building pressure and temperature until the hose melts off and the entire contents comes gushing out ready to burn.
then you can bet it will be of concern
11-20-2012, 05:01 PM
#49
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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it was of the least of your worries because it was mixed and not at 100%.
A quick scenario.
your trapped upside down in your truck and the fluids are running out, lets say the diesel catches on fire first for whatever reason, the burning temperature of diesel is a few thousand degrees so its just a matter of time before the pool of coolant also catches on fire and burns as well, or even worse the coolant doesn't escape and just sets in the flame engulfed radiator building pressure and temperature until the hose melts off and the entire contents comes gushing out ready to burn.
then you can bet it will be of concern
A quick scenario.
your trapped upside down in your truck and the fluids are running out, lets say the diesel catches on fire first for whatever reason, the burning temperature of diesel is a few thousand degrees so its just a matter of time before the pool of coolant also catches on fire and burns as well, or even worse the coolant doesn't escape and just sets in the flame engulfed radiator building pressure and temperature until the hose melts off and the entire contents comes gushing out ready to burn.
then you can bet it will be of concern
You've got Mark upside down in his dodge and dying a horrible death !
I bet some of the other guys here are thinking the same thing for creating this thread. Too bad, as I really valued Marks opinion
RIP Mark.... We knew you .... a little bit...
11-20-2012, 05:01 PM
#50
Administrator
Thread Starter
Hey T, I have never tested it, hopefully 93flatbed gets back to me, otherwise i'll go to autozone tomorrow and buy some...Mark
11-20-2012, 05:02 PM
#51
Administrator
Thread Starter
11-20-2012, 05:08 PM
#52
Administrator
Thread Starter
It's going to take a lot more than death to kill me...Mark
11-20-2012, 06:05 PM
#53
Registered User
That is the sad truth. unfortunately cases like this it takes a great tragedy before a change is made. People do a lot of crazy things for a long time and never have an issue but that doesn't make it safe for everyone to do.
Anyways that doesn't matter anymore because I just found what I needed for real life experiences that are backed by science and understanding.
Here they let you know that it takes only 10-20% to reduce the risk of fire, but 100% will auto-ignite and burn when exposed to a 1000*F surface.
Also just like my experience they state that the flame is colorless, so you may have actually had burning antifreeze and not known it.
And the best find yet.......
heres the link
Scroll down to page 3 to where it talks about proven antifreeze fires and he describes the exact process that I just explained of how antifreeze burns including the boiling off of the water content. These fires are with mixed coolant and not 100%. His phone number is listed at the bottom of the page, I recommend that before anyone considers actually running 100% that they give him a call and let him know that you drive a 20 year old turbocharged engine with a coolant line of 100% antifreeze that runs directly over the exhaust manifold with a heater selector valve also located above the manifold and see what his thoughts are. That actually should be part of the application process when joining up with the rest of Marks minions, ooops its still only minion right?
I now feel that I have produced enough information with real life applications , tests and experiences to answer your original question. These points should also prove a disadvantage to running 100% antifreeze and should discourage the use even though it can be done.
Anyways that doesn't matter anymore because I just found what I needed for real life experiences that are backed by science and understanding.
Here they let you know that it takes only 10-20% to reduce the risk of fire, but 100% will auto-ignite and burn when exposed to a 1000*F surface.
Also just like my experience they state that the flame is colorless, so you may have actually had burning antifreeze and not known it.
Data published by Gregory Barnett on vehicle fire investigation indicates that based on 2000 tests
he conducted, “Both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol will auto-ignite when exposed to a hot
exhaust. However, the mixture needs to be nearly pure for auto-ignition. If the water content in
the coolant is over 10-20 percent, then ignition is not likely.” Mr. Barnett also states, “When
coolant was purposely burned in testing, an auto-ignition was achieved at approximately 1,000°F.
The flames produced were nearly colorless and of short duration.” Mr. Barnett did not describe
the tests he performed to arrive at his conclusions.
8
he conducted, “Both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol will auto-ignite when exposed to a hot
exhaust. However, the mixture needs to be nearly pure for auto-ignition. If the water content in
the coolant is over 10-20 percent, then ignition is not likely.” Mr. Barnett also states, “When
coolant was purposely burned in testing, an auto-ignition was achieved at approximately 1,000°F.
The flames produced were nearly colorless and of short duration.” Mr. Barnett did not describe
the tests he performed to arrive at his conclusions.
8
And the best find yet.......
Mike Higgins has a background in electronics and
chemical analysis. Been involved in advanced training
programs and is a Certified Fire & Explosive Investigator.
Has burned over 200 cars, trucks & boats at training
seminars. Performed hundreds of laboratory experiments
on determining how materials burn and investigated over
2000 vehicle fires. Also, has testified over 200 times as an
expert in court.
chemical analysis. Been involved in advanced training
programs and is a Certified Fire & Explosive Investigator.
Has burned over 200 cars, trucks & boats at training
seminars. Performed hundreds of laboratory experiments
on determining how materials burn and investigated over
2000 vehicle fires. Also, has testified over 200 times as an
expert in court.
Scroll down to page 3 to where it talks about proven antifreeze fires and he describes the exact process that I just explained of how antifreeze burns including the boiling off of the water content. These fires are with mixed coolant and not 100%. His phone number is listed at the bottom of the page, I recommend that before anyone considers actually running 100% that they give him a call and let him know that you drive a 20 year old turbocharged engine with a coolant line of 100% antifreeze that runs directly over the exhaust manifold with a heater selector valve also located above the manifold and see what his thoughts are. That actually should be part of the application process when joining up with the rest of Marks minions, ooops its still only minion right?
I now feel that I have produced enough information with real life applications , tests and experiences to answer your original question. These points should also prove a disadvantage to running 100% antifreeze and should discourage the use even though it can be done.
11-20-2012, 06:11 PM
#54
Administrator
Thread Starter
Careful, sounds like non-civility is creeping in...Mark P.S. I was also a fire investigator
11-20-2012, 06:26 PM
#55
Administrator
So,....a few of you here think that making "sarcastic" remarks about ME telling you to keep this thread CIVIL is funny huh??? 
__________________________________________________ ___________
This thread has already had two "edits" and warnings by our Admins.!
If you guys can't keep this thread civil I am going to lock it up!
Rick (Totallyrad) has given some great advice on how the replies should
go. Please follow what he has said.
__________________________________________________ _____________
This thread is now DONE just like I told you it would be!!
__________________________________________________ ___________
This thread has already had two "edits" and warnings by our Admins.!
If you guys can't keep this thread civil I am going to lock it up!
Rick (Totallyrad) has given some great advice on how the replies should
go. Please follow what he has said.
__________________________________________________ _____________
This thread is now DONE just like I told you it would be!!
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