Auto vs Straight
03-17-2006, 02:39 AM
#61
From the Horses Mouth
Here is the excerpt from Terry aka Mysteryman that I cited, and the link to the forum for tdr members:
http://www.tdr1.com/forums/showthrea...0&page=1&pp=15
mysteryman wrote:
The bearing that fails is the rear main shaft bearing.....This happens due to some of the things I mentioned earlier in this thread....
What you have is a Timkin tapered roller bearing pressed onto the main shaft.....the race is then placed into the rear of the case partially sticking out. Then the tail shaft housing goes over the part of the race that sticks out pressing it down onto the cone....There are shims that go between the race and the tail shaft housing that adjust the bearing clearance..
The failure comes when the clearance is too tight (TOO MANY SHIMS)
This loads the bearing too tight.....When the trans heats up things expand...
This causes the race in the case to lock on the cone and rotate in the case...
This wears out the case and causes the trans to get real hot real fast...Then often times the case will crack between the main shaft and the countershaft bearing bores..... Party over !!!
The bearings in the Getrag are Timken tapered roller bearings just like the front wheel bearings. On front wheel bearings you adjust the clearance with the spindle nut....On a Getrag you stack thin shims.....For new bearings you want a +.006 preload . For used bearings you want .000 clearance.....
Back in the early 90's we were having problems with the remans getrag was sending us...I had about 20 or so that we tore down to find out what had happened...I found that all of them had +.030 to +.045 shim packs.....I thought that I was not calculating it correctly or that the failed units were too bad off to be accurate...
I went to the getrag reman plant way back when to get to the bottom of what the problem was..... I pulled 3 off of the line and tore them down to check the clearance....They all had +.030 to +.045 shim packs in them as well..... Oh sh** ! I called for the production manager ....We discussed my findings...He said that they set them up this way intentionally because they felt .006 was too lose and caused excess gear rattle during testing...OMG !!!
I promptly told him that he was to stick to the spec that WE told them to use and that I was going to write my report to my superiors that Getrag was the cause of the failures and should be back charged for the failures of the remans that Chrysler had had to eat in the previous 3 years!
For those of you that have had one of the Getrags apart . You may have noticed the the rear main shaft bearing race was excessively thick....
The reason for this was that when we were testing the very first Getrags we found that under excessive load that the standard race would split and crack the case...So we reduced the size of the cone and had Timkin make a special thick walled race....It worked and hence the reason for the strange heavy race...
The best thing to do is rebuild the Getrag PROPERLY and put it back in....
There is nothing wrong with the Getrag if you know how to build them !
I have written quite a bit on this subject in the past...Look up the posts...
I know that many think that the NV4500 is a better trans....But we did have the 4500 several years BEFORE the Getrags were used...The 4500 was only used for gas trucks originally....We used the Getrag because it was found to be a better trans during testing.....The 4500 was later used behind the diesels...It had a few small changes made to it before it was used in the diesels but that was it....
The 4500 replaced the Getrag for only one reason...cost !
Rebuilding the Getrag is not hard you just have to pay attention to details...
The Getrag's problems were few but vital... The things that made them fail were as follows...
1) OIL LEAKS
A) drain plug dripped , run out or run low on oil
B) No gaskets on early models , more leaks
C) pilot bushing failures,,, bronze was too soft
D) over loading , trailer too heavy
E) too much hp , turning up the fuel/air
F) overheating ruining the oil
G) wrong type of oil , no 90 weight in the Getrag ! !
H) not knowing how to shift , rattling the gears,, too high a gear at too low a speed
2) Poor assembly
A) setting shim packs too tight , Getrag even did this themselves at times
B) uneven shim packs between main shaft and countershaft causing tail shaft housing not to hit squarely
C) bell housing misalignment
In conclusion, I personally have never had a Getrag fail in any of my personal trucks nor have I ever had to rebuild one twice that I built,, I have seen them go hundreds of thousands of miles in fleet trucks without failures.....
If you still decide to replace it with some thing else I would be glad to buy whats left of your Getrag.. I could use the spare parts ...
Good luck and be sure to replace the pilot bushing. Preferably with a ball bearing... The flywheel will need to be bored out for this...I do my own but the guys at South Bend clutch do them all the time for people.....
As for the pilot bushing....Engineering knew it was not going to work before the first one left the plant...But if you did not haul trailers it would work long enough to get out of warrantee....Engineering wanted to use a ball bearing but . We were shot down due to cost ...
In 94 it was decided to go to a Torrington needle bearing...Great in theory but it just made matters worse....They ate the imputs alive....
As for the worn out ends on the imput shafts...What I do is put them in my cylinder grinder and make them round and back on center..Then I make a steel sleeve on the lathe and press it onto the shaft end.... Then I put them in my cylinder grinder again and finish them to the correct diameter for the ball bearing I am going to use ...The tolerance is .0001 ot centerline . And no your Craftsman engine lathe you got from dad is NOT going to do the job accurately enough !
http://www.tdr1.com/forums/showthrea...0&page=1&pp=15
mysteryman wrote:
The bearing that fails is the rear main shaft bearing.....This happens due to some of the things I mentioned earlier in this thread....
What you have is a Timkin tapered roller bearing pressed onto the main shaft.....the race is then placed into the rear of the case partially sticking out. Then the tail shaft housing goes over the part of the race that sticks out pressing it down onto the cone....There are shims that go between the race and the tail shaft housing that adjust the bearing clearance..
The failure comes when the clearance is too tight (TOO MANY SHIMS)
This loads the bearing too tight.....When the trans heats up things expand...
This causes the race in the case to lock on the cone and rotate in the case...
This wears out the case and causes the trans to get real hot real fast...Then often times the case will crack between the main shaft and the countershaft bearing bores..... Party over !!!
The bearings in the Getrag are Timken tapered roller bearings just like the front wheel bearings. On front wheel bearings you adjust the clearance with the spindle nut....On a Getrag you stack thin shims.....For new bearings you want a +.006 preload . For used bearings you want .000 clearance.....
Back in the early 90's we were having problems with the remans getrag was sending us...I had about 20 or so that we tore down to find out what had happened...I found that all of them had +.030 to +.045 shim packs.....I thought that I was not calculating it correctly or that the failed units were too bad off to be accurate...
I went to the getrag reman plant way back when to get to the bottom of what the problem was..... I pulled 3 off of the line and tore them down to check the clearance....They all had +.030 to +.045 shim packs in them as well..... Oh sh** ! I called for the production manager ....We discussed my findings...He said that they set them up this way intentionally because they felt .006 was too lose and caused excess gear rattle during testing...OMG !!!
I promptly told him that he was to stick to the spec that WE told them to use and that I was going to write my report to my superiors that Getrag was the cause of the failures and should be back charged for the failures of the remans that Chrysler had had to eat in the previous 3 years!
For those of you that have had one of the Getrags apart . You may have noticed the the rear main shaft bearing race was excessively thick....
The reason for this was that when we were testing the very first Getrags we found that under excessive load that the standard race would split and crack the case...So we reduced the size of the cone and had Timkin make a special thick walled race....It worked and hence the reason for the strange heavy race...
The best thing to do is rebuild the Getrag PROPERLY and put it back in....
There is nothing wrong with the Getrag if you know how to build them !
I have written quite a bit on this subject in the past...Look up the posts...
I know that many think that the NV4500 is a better trans....But we did have the 4500 several years BEFORE the Getrags were used...The 4500 was only used for gas trucks originally....We used the Getrag because it was found to be a better trans during testing.....The 4500 was later used behind the diesels...It had a few small changes made to it before it was used in the diesels but that was it....
The 4500 replaced the Getrag for only one reason...cost !
Rebuilding the Getrag is not hard you just have to pay attention to details...
The Getrag's problems were few but vital... The things that made them fail were as follows...
1) OIL LEAKS
A) drain plug dripped , run out or run low on oil
B) No gaskets on early models , more leaks
C) pilot bushing failures,,, bronze was too soft
D) over loading , trailer too heavy
E) too much hp , turning up the fuel/air
F) overheating ruining the oil
G) wrong type of oil , no 90 weight in the Getrag ! !
H) not knowing how to shift , rattling the gears,, too high a gear at too low a speed
2) Poor assembly
A) setting shim packs too tight , Getrag even did this themselves at times
B) uneven shim packs between main shaft and countershaft causing tail shaft housing not to hit squarely
C) bell housing misalignment
In conclusion, I personally have never had a Getrag fail in any of my personal trucks nor have I ever had to rebuild one twice that I built,, I have seen them go hundreds of thousands of miles in fleet trucks without failures.....
If you still decide to replace it with some thing else I would be glad to buy whats left of your Getrag.. I could use the spare parts ...
Good luck and be sure to replace the pilot bushing. Preferably with a ball bearing... The flywheel will need to be bored out for this...I do my own but the guys at South Bend clutch do them all the time for people.....
As for the pilot bushing....Engineering knew it was not going to work before the first one left the plant...But if you did not haul trailers it would work long enough to get out of warrantee....Engineering wanted to use a ball bearing but . We were shot down due to cost ...
In 94 it was decided to go to a Torrington needle bearing...Great in theory but it just made matters worse....They ate the imputs alive....
As for the worn out ends on the imput shafts...What I do is put them in my cylinder grinder and make them round and back on center..Then I make a steel sleeve on the lathe and press it onto the shaft end.... Then I put them in my cylinder grinder again and finish them to the correct diameter for the ball bearing I am going to use ...The tolerance is .0001 ot centerline . And no your Craftsman engine lathe you got from dad is NOT going to do the job accurately enough !
03-17-2006, 08:58 AM
#62
Registered User
Hard to argue with that, but did they ever come up with a solution for the 2nd to 3rd gear spacing problem? That alone was a deal killer for me.
I wish we could hear a similarity knowledgeable diagnosis on the NV4500 and NV5600. Like I said, I raced the predecessor to the NV4500 (NP A833) behind 600HP Hemi's without a problem ever. That trans was designed for Chrysler specifically to win the Super Stock wars (which is still king!) and was used forever by mother. I even have an overdrive unit out of a Volare Station Wagon!
The NV (New Process Became New Venture) in larger in every dimension than the A833, and I haven't seen one fail from a design flaw yet. Granted, I'm not in the tranny business. My Getrags splattered under the same abuse that I have dished out to the NV, and it wasn't the rear output bearing, but the front countershaft bearing I was spitting out of the case, and that was before the major juicing done since then.
Just some observations from the fringe....
I wish we could hear a similarity knowledgeable diagnosis on the NV4500 and NV5600. Like I said, I raced the predecessor to the NV4500 (NP A833) behind 600HP Hemi's without a problem ever. That trans was designed for Chrysler specifically to win the Super Stock wars (which is still king!) and was used forever by mother. I even have an overdrive unit out of a Volare Station Wagon!
The NV (New Process Became New Venture) in larger in every dimension than the A833, and I haven't seen one fail from a design flaw yet. Granted, I'm not in the tranny business. My Getrags splattered under the same abuse that I have dished out to the NV, and it wasn't the rear output bearing, but the front countershaft bearing I was spitting out of the case, and that was before the major juicing done since then.
Just some observations from the fringe....
03-17-2006, 09:03 AM
#63
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Nice post! (Maybe you all have seen this, I haven't though) As for your previous post, Pape, I'd love to switch 'em out (once again, just my personal preference). If you find a way to do it for less than a grand... I'm in. That's why few actually do the auto to straight conversion... $$$$$$$$. Everyones really kept this thread interesting, a good read from start to finish.
Mike
Mike
03-17-2006, 12:36 PM
#64
Well the problem is that parts alone will cost more than that, I believe. I am getting a Getrag in good shape for 500 but it could use a freshening up/inspection... might as well do it while it is out eh?? and then even though it has the bellhousing and crossmember included, the parts that are still needed are the clutch/flywheel/pressure plate assy/ and the footpedals/clutch brake assy/ with slave cylinder, etc. NOW I haven't priced the clutch and pedal assy's but I will guarentee that that is about a 1000 or more right there. NOW if you could get a getrag swapped straight across for the 727, you'd be in business for 1000 + time.
Nick
Nick
04-06-2006, 02:26 AM
#65
re: 2nd to third gear spacing problem...
huppers the 2nd to third gear spacing problem is EXACTLY the same as the getrag, just read the chart on quad 4x4...
http://www.quad4x4.com/NV4500FAQ.htm#how
Current Production NV4500 Gear Ratios
1st....................................5.61:1
2nd...................................3.04:1
3rd....................................1.67:1
4th....................................1.00:1
5th.......................................75:1
Reverse.............................5.04:1
Getrag G360 Gear Ratios
1st.........................................5.53:1
2nd........................................3.04:1
3rd.........................................1:67:1
4th.........................................1.00:1
5th............................................77: 1
Reverse..................................5.61:1
http://www.quad4x4.com/NV4500FAQ.htm#how
Current Production NV4500 Gear Ratios
1st....................................5.61:1
2nd...................................3.04:1
3rd....................................1.67:1
4th....................................1.00:1
5th.......................................75:1
Reverse.............................5.04:1
Getrag G360 Gear Ratios
1st.........................................5.53:1
2nd........................................3.04:1
3rd.........................................1:67:1
4th.........................................1.00:1
5th............................................77: 1
Reverse..................................5.61:1
04-06-2006, 03:18 AM
#66
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Originally Posted by rockjeep73
a little different than the 60%-65% stock converters.
04-06-2006, 07:07 AM
#67
Registered User
Originally Posted by PapeCAT
huppers the 2nd to third gear spacing problem is EXACTLY the same as the getrag,
04-06-2006, 08:08 AM
#68
Registered User
Originally Posted by mhuppertz
That's got to be wrong. I'm not the only one that has noticed a gear spacing issue.......
04-06-2006, 09:55 AM
#69
getrag vs. nv4500
04-21-2006, 02:09 PM
#70
Registered User
Originally Posted by PapeCAT
04-21-2006, 02:21 PM
#71
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strait auto
people just because the book says so dont make it so 
. i worked for dealer 10 years. a dana 60 was supposed to be all that came behind a hemi 4 speed. i personally saw a 66 hemi belvedere come off of the truck with an 8.75 behind a 4 speed. wouldnt last long under hard useage but i was there.
. i worked for dealer 10 years. a dana 60 was supposed to be all that came behind a hemi 4 speed. i personally saw a 66 hemi belvedere come off of the truck with an 8.75 behind a 4 speed. wouldnt last long under hard useage but i was there.
04-21-2006, 04:17 PM
#72
yeah it happens... a tdr member philip has a '93 d350 dually auto (a518 od) with 3.07's it is a freak of nature. built in 12/92, it was towards the end of the first gen runs and they had a set of 3.07 dually axles sitting around and put them in. 3.07's weren't even a factory option after 91.0, I doubt you could change the gears in the getrag if you even wanted to.. the parts would have to be custom as they were scarce to come by even in the early 90's. I haven't heard of any optional gear ratios in the getrag but who knows.
04-22-2006, 01:46 PM
#73
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My truck has an automatic in it for one simple reason: Since my engine and transmission is underneath the car hauler bed, I was unable to shift a manual transmission back there, so I had to go with an automatic. It has a 518 in it now, but I am looking for a 47RH from a 94-95 CTD or V-10 truck because I want to install an exhaust brake on the truck and I need a lock up convertor.
Thanks, Scott
Thanks, Scott
Last edited by wannadiesel; 04-22-2006 at 04:15 PM. Reason: WTB ad removed, use the classifieds
04-23-2006, 01:24 AM
#75
getrag is in... all I can say is
will post details later... I'm tired!
will post details later... I'm tired!