Anyone heard of pin timing the pump?
02-25-2009, 03:01 PM
#1
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Anyone heard of pin timing the pump?
I just called Diamond Diesel in Oakland. The guy I talked to suggested that I check the pointer on the side of the pump. He called it "pin timing" the engine.
He said there is a big acorn nut on the left side of the pump near the back that is about 11/16". He said to first set the engine at cylinder 1 TDC then remove that nut and reach in and pull out the "timing plug." Once it is out he said there should be a metal pointer that should be centered horizontally in the hole.
This is the first time I have heard of this and I have been reading this forum for two years. Has anyone else heard of this? Anyone done it? Anyone have pictures?
He said there is a big acorn nut on the left side of the pump near the back that is about 11/16". He said to first set the engine at cylinder 1 TDC then remove that nut and reach in and pull out the "timing plug." Once it is out he said there should be a metal pointer that should be centered horizontally in the hole.
This is the first time I have heard of this and I have been reading this forum for two years. Has anyone else heard of this? Anyone done it? Anyone have pictures?
02-25-2009, 04:11 PM
#2
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On the side of the P7100 there is a timing pin, turned around for normal use IIRC, and you know about the timing pin on the engine. Theoretically, if you roll the engine and put in the timing pin, and have the pin in the pump, you can set the gear and it be in time.
This assumes stock timing IIRC, and also assumes neither pin has ever been bent. I believe it is covered in the FSM.
Might be OK to start an engine, but I wouldn't trust it.
This assumes stock timing IIRC, and also assumes neither pin has ever been bent. I believe it is covered in the FSM.
Might be OK to start an engine, but I wouldn't trust it.
02-25-2009, 05:18 PM
#4
Registered User
The pin on the side of the pump is mainly used to lock the pump when you remove it. Pin has a tip like a flat screwdriver that fits in the horizontal notch. Cap is removed and pin inside is flipped over when the engine is at TDC. Cover nut replaced to lock in place.
The pin on the rear serves the same function for setting TDC.
Where the pump is locked depends only on where the timing is set or has slipped to.
The pin on the rear serves the same function for setting TDC.
Where the pump is locked depends only on where the timing is set or has slipped to.
02-27-2009, 02:27 AM
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The pin in the pump is set so when the pump is pinned, and the engine is pinned, then it will be set to factory timing. Pump shops can move the little arm in the pump, so instead of pin timing it to factory (somewhere between 11 and 14 degrees), it will be at 16, or where ever they choose.
02-28-2009, 07:51 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
I tried using this method and stopped because the oil in the pump started running out as soon as I removed the nut. I didn't want to start the engine and have no oil in the pump so I put the nut back and decided to fool with this later.
I found the source of my smoke problem anyway. I don't think it is related to timing.
I found the source of my smoke problem anyway. I don't think it is related to timing.
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03-01-2009, 10:39 AM
#8
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The pin in the pump is set so when the pump is pinned, and the engine is pinned, then it will be set to factory timing. Pump shops can move the little arm in the pump, so instead of pin timing it to factory (somewhere between 11 and 14 degrees), it will be at 16, or where ever they choose.
03-01-2009, 04:23 PM
#9
There is a special tool you can buy to do it. I believe you truck is set 12 which is the stock settng. If you start moddong your truck it only makes sense you will need to advance timimg a bit. My old 12v had an issue with timimg after I added injectors and other things. it would like bog out around 55ph then clear up at 65mph. But here is the timimg chart.
Bosch P7100 Pump Timing
How do I check my CPL number?
The Control Parts List number or CPL number is located on the engine data plate, which can be found on the drivers side of the timing gear cover. The engine data plate includes such information as the CPL number, engine serial number, and pump timing information.
How do I determine what the stock pump timing is?
The pump timing as set by the factory when the engine was manufactured, is also located on the data plate which can be found on the drivers side of the timing gear cover.
What are the advantages of advancing the pump timing?
The advantages of increasing the pump timing are increased fuel economy, increased top end horsepower, increased throttle response, decreased exhaust temperatures, decreased hydrocarbons, and smoother operation.
What are the disadvantages of advancing the pump timing?
The disadvantages of increasing the pump timing are increased noise, increased NOx emissions, increased black smoke particulates, decreased bottom end horsepower, and increased cylinder head pressure.
How much should I advance my pump timing?
For stock trucks or trucks with only mild horsepower increases, the typical rule of thumb is 1° advance is better, 2° advance is not.
Do horsepower modifications effect the pump timing?
For higher horsepower applications, the proper timing will vary according to your specific modifications. Things like what injectors you have, what RPM you want to achieve, changes to the head gasket, and other factors can effect the pump timing and how your specific application needs to be setup.
How do I convert degrees of timing into plunger lift in millimeters?
First check to see what CPL number your engine model / year is. Then use our Bosch P7100 Plunger Lift timing chart.
Are there any TSB's related to pump timing?
TSB 18-11-96 applies to CPL numbers 2022, 2023, and 1863. Check the notes at the bottom of our Bosch P7100 Plunger Lift timing chart.
Related Topics:
http://www.pdrdiesel.com/oldsite/TechPTiming.htm
Bosch P7100 Pump Timing
How do I check my CPL number?
The Control Parts List number or CPL number is located on the engine data plate, which can be found on the drivers side of the timing gear cover. The engine data plate includes such information as the CPL number, engine serial number, and pump timing information.
How do I determine what the stock pump timing is?
The pump timing as set by the factory when the engine was manufactured, is also located on the data plate which can be found on the drivers side of the timing gear cover.
What are the advantages of advancing the pump timing?
The advantages of increasing the pump timing are increased fuel economy, increased top end horsepower, increased throttle response, decreased exhaust temperatures, decreased hydrocarbons, and smoother operation.
What are the disadvantages of advancing the pump timing?
The disadvantages of increasing the pump timing are increased noise, increased NOx emissions, increased black smoke particulates, decreased bottom end horsepower, and increased cylinder head pressure.
How much should I advance my pump timing?
For stock trucks or trucks with only mild horsepower increases, the typical rule of thumb is 1° advance is better, 2° advance is not.
Do horsepower modifications effect the pump timing?
For higher horsepower applications, the proper timing will vary according to your specific modifications. Things like what injectors you have, what RPM you want to achieve, changes to the head gasket, and other factors can effect the pump timing and how your specific application needs to be setup.
How do I convert degrees of timing into plunger lift in millimeters?
First check to see what CPL number your engine model / year is. Then use our Bosch P7100 Plunger Lift timing chart.
Are there any TSB's related to pump timing?
TSB 18-11-96 applies to CPL numbers 2022, 2023, and 1863. Check the notes at the bottom of our Bosch P7100 Plunger Lift timing chart.
Related Topics:
http://www.pdrdiesel.com/oldsite/TechPTiming.htm
03-24-2009, 09:22 AM
#10
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I use this method for timing. I have done 3 trucks so far with no issues. I even checked the timing on my truck that was timed using the dial indicator and the measurement was very close within 0.5*
On a stock truck that has never had the timing advanced, tdc of the motor SHOULD make the tab on the pump show up in the middle of the opening with the acorn nut. If the truck has had the timing advanced you can find tdc on the motor and mark its location. Then slowly turn the motor counterclockwise until you find the pump tab in the center of the opening. Then measure back to the tdc mark on the balancer. Stock timing plus the distance in 1/8ths of and inch will give you the timing the truck is set at.
For example if your tab is centered when your motor is 3/8" from tdc on the balancer your pump is set at ~3* advanced. If you were 13.5* stock, you are now ~16.5*.
If you want to adust your timing at this point you can pull the gear on the pump and advance the timing by turning the motor counter clockwise (balancer going counter clockwise)
1/8th of an inch of balancer travel is ~1* timing advance.
When you are done rotating the motor the pump tab should still be centered in the opening. You can then reattach the pump gear and torque the nut. (I always clean the pump shaft with brake cleaner or a similar product before putting it back on to reduce the chance of it slipping.)
Make sure you remove the pin in the pump if you used it to hold the tab and put it back in the way you found it. They are very easy to brake off.
On a stock truck that has never had the timing advanced, tdc of the motor SHOULD make the tab on the pump show up in the middle of the opening with the acorn nut. If the truck has had the timing advanced you can find tdc on the motor and mark its location. Then slowly turn the motor counterclockwise until you find the pump tab in the center of the opening. Then measure back to the tdc mark on the balancer. Stock timing plus the distance in 1/8ths of and inch will give you the timing the truck is set at.
For example if your tab is centered when your motor is 3/8" from tdc on the balancer your pump is set at ~3* advanced. If you were 13.5* stock, you are now ~16.5*.
If you want to adust your timing at this point you can pull the gear on the pump and advance the timing by turning the motor counter clockwise (balancer going counter clockwise)
1/8th of an inch of balancer travel is ~1* timing advance.
When you are done rotating the motor the pump tab should still be centered in the opening. You can then reattach the pump gear and torque the nut. (I always clean the pump shaft with brake cleaner or a similar product before putting it back on to reduce the chance of it slipping.)
Make sure you remove the pin in the pump if you used it to hold the tab and put it back in the way you found it. They are very easy to brake off.
03-24-2009, 10:07 AM
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03-24-2009, 11:18 AM
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I use this method for timing. I have done 3 trucks so far with no issues. I even checked the timing on my truck that was timed using the dial indicator and the measurement was very close within 0.5*
On a stock truck that has never had the timing advanced, tdc of the motor SHOULD make the tab on the pump show up in the middle of the opening with the acorn nut. If the truck has had the timing advanced you can find tdc on the motor and mark its location. Then slowly turn the motor counterclockwise until you find the pump tab in the center of the opening. Then measure back to the tdc mark on the balancer. Stock timing plus the distance in 1/8ths of and inch will give you the timing the truck is set at.
For example if your tab is centered when your motor is 3/8" from tdc on the balancer your pump is set at ~3* advanced. If you were 13.5* stock, you are now ~16.5*.
If you want to adust your timing at this point you can pull the gear on the pump and advance the timing by turning the motor counter clockwise (balancer going counter clockwise)
1/8th of an inch of balancer travel is ~1* timing advance.
When you are done rotating the motor the pump tab should still be centered in the opening. You can then reattach the pump gear and torque the nut. (I always clean the pump shaft with brake cleaner or a similar product before putting it back on to reduce the chance of it slipping.)
Make sure you remove the pin in the pump if you used it to hold the tab and put it back in the way you found it. They are very easy to brake off.
On a stock truck that has never had the timing advanced, tdc of the motor SHOULD make the tab on the pump show up in the middle of the opening with the acorn nut. If the truck has had the timing advanced you can find tdc on the motor and mark its location. Then slowly turn the motor counterclockwise until you find the pump tab in the center of the opening. Then measure back to the tdc mark on the balancer. Stock timing plus the distance in 1/8ths of and inch will give you the timing the truck is set at.
For example if your tab is centered when your motor is 3/8" from tdc on the balancer your pump is set at ~3* advanced. If you were 13.5* stock, you are now ~16.5*.
If you want to adust your timing at this point you can pull the gear on the pump and advance the timing by turning the motor counter clockwise (balancer going counter clockwise)
1/8th of an inch of balancer travel is ~1* timing advance.
When you are done rotating the motor the pump tab should still be centered in the opening. You can then reattach the pump gear and torque the nut. (I always clean the pump shaft with brake cleaner or a similar product before putting it back on to reduce the chance of it slipping.)
Make sure you remove the pin in the pump if you used it to hold the tab and put it back in the way you found it. They are very easy to brake off.
I'm gonna do it this way except for a few refinements. after checking the initial timing, I'm gonna use a degree wheel and then set the new timing, lock down the pump, unpin the pump and turn the motor 2 turns clockwise and then check if the timing pin goes in at the new timing.
If not( maybe because of gear lash) then loosen the pump back up and adjust for the error- if any. this has got to be darn near as accurate as using a dial indicator and all those expensive tools. I'll let you know as soon as this hernia heals.
03-24-2009, 03:38 PM
#13
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I use this method for timing. I have done 3 trucks so far with no issues. I even checked the timing on my truck that was timed using the dial indicator and the measurement was very close within 0.5*
On a stock truck that has never had the timing advanced, tdc of the motor SHOULD make the tab on the pump show up in the middle of the opening with the acorn nut. If the truck has had the timing advanced you can find tdc on the motor and mark its location. Then slowly turn the motor counterclockwise until you find the pump tab in the center of the opening. Then measure back to the tdc mark on the balancer. Stock timing plus the distance in 1/8ths of and inch will give you the timing the truck is set at.
For example if your tab is centered when your motor is 3/8" from tdc on the balancer your pump is set at ~3* advanced. If you were 13.5* stock, you are now ~16.5*.
If you want to adust your timing at this point you can pull the gear on the pump and advance the timing by turning the motor counter clockwise (balancer going counter clockwise)
1/8th of an inch of balancer travel is ~1* timing advance.
When you are done rotating the motor the pump tab should still be centered in the opening. You can then reattach the pump gear and torque the nut. (I always clean the pump shaft with brake cleaner or a similar product before putting it back on to reduce the chance of it slipping.)
Make sure you remove the pin in the pump if you used it to hold the tab and put it back in the way you found it. They are very easy to brake off.
On a stock truck that has never had the timing advanced, tdc of the motor SHOULD make the tab on the pump show up in the middle of the opening with the acorn nut. If the truck has had the timing advanced you can find tdc on the motor and mark its location. Then slowly turn the motor counterclockwise until you find the pump tab in the center of the opening. Then measure back to the tdc mark on the balancer. Stock timing plus the distance in 1/8ths of and inch will give you the timing the truck is set at.
For example if your tab is centered when your motor is 3/8" from tdc on the balancer your pump is set at ~3* advanced. If you were 13.5* stock, you are now ~16.5*.
If you want to adust your timing at this point you can pull the gear on the pump and advance the timing by turning the motor counter clockwise (balancer going counter clockwise)
1/8th of an inch of balancer travel is ~1* timing advance.
When you are done rotating the motor the pump tab should still be centered in the opening. You can then reattach the pump gear and torque the nut. (I always clean the pump shaft with brake cleaner or a similar product before putting it back on to reduce the chance of it slipping.)
Make sure you remove the pin in the pump if you used it to hold the tab and put it back in the way you found it. They are very easy to brake off.
03-24-2009, 03:44 PM
#14
Registered User
Thread Starter
When I pulled the acorn nut on my pump oil came flowing out. I didn't wait for it to stop, but it flowed a long time. If this nut stays off will the pump drain? Wouldn't this be bad for the pump if it did drain? Does the flow of oil eventually stop?
Bob
Bob